January 30, 2004
And the "Longest Answer to a Yes or No Question" Award Goes To
You've probably heard about the various controversies surrounding Mel Gibson's new joint, "Passion of the Christ". One issue is that Mel's father is a religious leader of sorts, who among other things is known for allegedly denying that the holocaust took place, ar at least claiming that the numbers are greatly exaggerated.
So in her interview with Mel for Reader's Digest, right-wing speechwriter Peggy Noonan (the one who coined "thousand points of light", i believe) tries to set the record straight: "You're going to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?"
I'm not sure that Mel's response quite puts me at ease:
Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Well, I guess that was sort of a "yes", kind of? He is agreeing that there is evidence of holocaust-related program activities? I dunno, kinda sketchy.
Posted by jsmooth995 at January 30, 2004 10:03 PM
Yes, but most Holocaust deniers these days don't flat-out deny that it happened. They make less "extreme" and more "plausible" claims like:
* Hitler had no explicit plan to exterminate Jews
* the Jews in concentration camps all died of malnutrition or TB
* the fatalities are greatly exaggerated
* there was nothing unique or Jewish about the Holocaust
* etc.
This is a much more effective and dangerous technique. Instead of "the Holocaust didn't happen", they forward the lie that "the Holocaust didn't matter because that shit happens all the time".
Unfortunately, Mel Gibson doesn't make clear whether or not he's of *this* school of Holocaust revisionism.
His teacher "worked" at a concentration camp? WTF kind of terminology is that?
Posted by: Joe Grossberg at January 30, 2004 10:42 PM
wow!!! that is a sketchy answer if i ever heard a BS artist working it. is either yes or no. to me it sounds like he said the holocaust did happen but it is not what people think. something like "yeah he held them hostage but didn't actually kill them" sort of crap.
i did not know anything about his believes but you can be sure that i will not be spending a penny on mel anytime soon.
Posted by: rick at January 31, 2004 9:02 AM
How is this answer sketchy? He states he knows and respects Holocaust survivors. He then goes on to take the opportunity to remind everyone that there are OTHER horrible events in history, all of which are as, if not more, horrible than the Holocaust...
That's how I read it. And he's right.. read it again... "Yes many people died there. Yes, it's terrible. But look, lots of people died in this event, and this event, and this event..."
I bet the shit woulda really hit the fan had he gone on to say: "but you know, about as many palestinians have been murdered by Israel since then..."
People gotta stop killing people.
Posted by: Vik Anthony at January 31, 2004 1:11 PM
Vik, you should read Joe's comments above.
Posted by: Jay Smooth at January 31, 2004 1:39 PM
No jay, i think what you mean is,
Vik IS joe's comments above...
sad world indeed.. 50 years and nothing...
Vik, for you to even mention the palastinian israeli thing...
and then wrap it up all nicely in a neat "people should stop killing people" package,
is plain stupid.
you said :
"I bet the shit woulda really hit the fan had he gone on to say..."
Hit the fan meaning ?
those jews complaining again ?
you are either dumb, or anti-semetic.
Posted by: Zohar at January 31, 2004 6:55 PM
and if i may clarify a bit... in case you didn't understand why i'm pissed off at ya,
the palastinian conflict, is a direct result,
of the holocaust and anti-semitsm...
the fact that all the jews in the whole world,
had no where to go until that shit happend,
and made the world open it's eyes abit harder -
(u.n resulotion 1947)
what are you talking about ?
6 million people got systematicly erased,
in the name of race purification...
and you are talking bout war casualities ?
or "shit happens all over the world" ?
and dude,
believe me, i am against what israel is doing,
but it's still a conflict man,
in the past years, thousends of palastineins have dies, and so have thousends of israelis...
comapring this to what the nazi's did...
dude, whatever... why am even wasting time.. any person who dosen't undersatnd what's problematic about mel's response is an idiot.
think what you like of me,
it's as simple as that.
Posted by: Zohar at January 31, 2004 7:14 PM
Millions of Jews got killed in a systematic repression by an administration in Germany, so what? How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel by different administrations and in a systematic way also? How many Africans have been killed in a systematic way for many centuries in horrible situations in similar conditions? How many Europeans? What's the difference between all those millions that have died for similar crimes (color, race, origin) Jay? It is that some people have the money and the power to influence our perceptions as to bring more sympathy, excuses or propaganda for their actions today. Truth is other things deserve more attention than this bs. Personally, I think Mel Gibson is right. His knowledge of similar events seems to be limited to early 20th century, but if you follow comtempory, modern history, the same thing is going on, in Asia, in Africa, in Europe and South America. Nobody seems to be paying attention. Yes, 6 millions Jews got killed 60 or 70 years ago. Millions are being killed right now for their ethnic origins or their religious beliefs, or simply for financial gain. What's the big deal with the Holocaust, as if it was the only genocide? I try to go beyond the propaganda and avoid being blinded too much by the anesthesia to reality that the political system in the US is providing.
Posted by: N56 at February 1, 2004 8:43 AM
"Millions of Jews got killed in a systematic repression by an administration in Germany, so what?"
i find it hard to believe that if you, N56, read that statement out loud to yourself a couple of times you wouldn't cop on to what's wrong with it...but i already know i'm wrong.
Posted by: gsquail at February 2, 2004 3:50 PM
If you have a selective memory, difficult assimilation of historical facts or simply refuse to admit all modern tragedies, then yeah, you will not be able to assimilate and objectively understand what I am saying...
Posted by: N56 at February 2, 2004 9:39 PM
N56: The problem here (well, one of them) is you're just addressing your own straw man arguments that nobody else here has represented in their posts.
Whether the Holocaust is "different" from other historical events is not the question, and I don't see why it should be. Such debates over "which genocide is worse, which is the 'real' holocaust" are rarely constructive.. you'll generally do a disservice to the victims of any atrocity, by attempting to rank it on a scale.
The question here, quite simply, is does Mel Gibson acknowledge that the Nazis exterminated millions of Jews in their concentration camps or not. It is a yes or no question. Answering with a simple "yes" would do nothing to belittle the holocaust of the middle passage, the slaughter of ten percent of Rwanda's population in the mid 90's, or any of the other unthinkable atrocities we have inflicted upon our fellow humans.
The only person belittling someone else's history here is you, with your glib "so what about this BS" dismissals.
Posted by: Jay Smooth at February 2, 2004 11:18 PM
This brings to light the fact that "proof" means different things to difference people.
But the weird thing is that, in spite of 99% of people believing the holocaust DID happen (aka 6 million jews + a few gypsies dead)... there are still thousands of Jewish people who freak out when someone contradicts the history books. The other thing is that denying that something happened is not exactly a hard-hitting argument. Why get all bunched up in a tissy over it... especially since you are NEVER going to change a persons opinion when they base their statements on hearsay.
Zohar... for a name like that I would expect a little more understanding. There will always be people who will CHOOSE to live in ignorance. If everyone were "good", there would be no evil and the entire foundation of Judaism would crumble. Relax and accept the fact that MOST people are rooting for the Jews on this one.
Jay... since when did your site become the "Jews vs. The World" battleground?? You must be on some ADL web list or something.
Posted by: eric at February 3, 2004 12:53 AM
Joe... yeah, I just caught that comment about working in a concentration camp. If I were him, I would think about leaving that off my resume.
Posted by: eric at February 3, 2004 12:56 AM
I guess I wasn't clear ebough. Neither was Mel Gibson. Instead, Mel should have said: "Yeah, the Holocaust happened. But a lot of similar events also happened and are still happening today. Let's not dwell on it if we are not going to objectively look at similar tragedies." I guess it would have not been politically correct, that's why his answer was the "longest answer to a yes or no question". Rarely are things black or white, right or wrong. To expect a Yes or No answer when it will not objectiveley represent his point of view is not fair. I'm not denying anynody's history. I'm just saying that we should expand our horizon a little more and not have a very selective and biased view of historical events or facts. I'm in no delirium, taking things out of context, no. My first post says the exact same thing that Mel Gibson said, except that i don't have to be pc. His answer reflects the viewpoint of many people, like me, who think that yes the holocaust happened but so many similar different tragedies happened at the same period, in same conditions, so many similar tragedies are going on today that we should be careful. The agenda that maintain us on a very selective subject is not worth it.
Posted by: N56 at February 3, 2004 1:25 PM
N56... Well, the Holocaust was large even by genocidal standards. But I think your basic point about selective attention is right on. Central Africa has had the most genocidal activity over the past 10 years, and yet the Holocaust still gets way more attention and media time. Somehow, Germans killing Jews is sexy. But Africans killing each other barely newsworthy. Go figure.
Click on my name to read some things I wrote and articles on genocide in the Congo.
http://www.stinkzone.com/cgi-bin/archives/000013.html
Posted by: eric at February 4, 2004 12:44 AM
"Jay... since when did your site become the "Jews vs. The World" battleground?? You must be on some ADL web list or something."
I think it's because he recently posted on Holocaust denial and Russell Simmons' speech against anti-Semitism. I don't think his Jewish readers' participation in those discussions is surprising.
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