Kelefa Sanneh on Sage Francis

[Incredibly fast comment spammer deleted]

not that the above commenter doesn't have a point, but what i was going to say is: i've never cared for sage francis a bit.

Time to go back to Typekey, Jay.

and why are the list of side affects or possible side affects of these new drugs always 5 to 10 times worse and longer than what the drug is intended to fix.

No impossibly smooth stanzas filled with hidden jokes and counter-rhythms? No mesmerizing stories or irresistable refrains? No state-of-the-art beats or propulsive club tracks?

dance, monkeys. y'all aren't paying attention, at all. at least Sage doesn't bite big and nas while fronting on originality.

i'm not one to say fuck a jay-z, but i'm so damn tired of the kneejerk reactions to sage. go listen to his new album about 10 times, then come back and tell me that his verses aren't impossibly smooth with insane counterrhythms as well as a ridiculous amount of poetic inter-connectedness and flip-flip-flip-flip-that-metaphor-until-your-head-explodes fun.

Hey Embryo! I listened to the album about ten times! His verses aren't impossibly smooth with insane counterrhythms as well as a ridiculous amount of poetic inter-connectedness and flip-flip-flip-flip-that-metaphor-until-your-head-explodes fun! It's honestly pretty boring! Some of it sounds like the Gravity Kills remix album!

okay, you're on. let's play pick apart the cleverness:

'i've got more back issues than Guns and Ammo
cuz my uzi weighs a ton, and i never let go of the handle
i'm a man now / a real man
not the one who went to two colleges, groveling over meal plans'

'some of y'all still haven't grown into your face
and your face doesn't quite match your head
i'm waiting for a brain to fill the dead space that's left
you're all 'Give me ethnicity or give me dreads!"

A trust-a-fundian rebel without a cause for alarm
because when push comes to shove, you jump into your forefathers' arms
he's a banker -- you're part of the system
off go the dreadlocks, in comes the income
the briefcase / the freebase / the sickness / the symptoms
when the camera starts rolling, stay the fuck out of the picture, pilgrim.'

'generalize my disease, I need a taste of what it's like
Living off the fat of kings, i play the scab at your hunger strike.'

'one light, one love / one too many victims
republicrats, democrans, one-party system
media goes in a frenzy, they're stripped of their credentials
presidential candidates can't debate over this instrumental
let 'em freestyle, winner-take-all
when the music's dead i'll have ted nugent's head hanging on my wall
kill one of ours, we'll kill one of yours
with some friendly fire -- that's a funny term, like civil war

6 in the morning, police at my crib
now my nights consist of two toothpicks and eyelids
A crucifix and vitamins / Music that is pirated
New flavored food made of mutated hybrids

uh - they tell me that it's not that bad
it fucks you up good, but it's not that bad
they hold on to these tails til it's the dog that wags
god save us all if he lets the cat out the bag'

anticon and associates (of which sage francis is a part), and all other alternative, suburban, anti-rap rap originated as a counter-argument to the mainstream explosion of hip hop in the late nineties (the bling bling era or whatever you wante to call it). They succeeded in reminding a great many of us of the diversity that is possible in hip hop, and I have to give them some credit for their part in sparking a more interesting underground scene. But I think they haven't evolved much since then. They still exist as the same old counter-argument to a hip hop culture that has changed in a lot of ways over the years. As long as they work within that played out ideology they will continue to lose importance, and their incessant self-pondering and counter culture pseudo-intellecutalism will be less and less appreciated.

they, they, they, them, them, them,

sage doesn't construct any consistent narrative or say anything that hasn't been thought up by anyone else who bitches about the system and claims originality. he's just lashing out in all directions. that's the banality of their style right thurr that i was speaking on in my post.

I considered myself a major indie/underground rap fan/supporter/advocate/whatever you want to call it . . .

But I have to say, Sage Francis's new CD Healthy Distrust was a tough listen for me. I listened to the disc several times and I almost gave up on him.

Maybe Sage should try some Tramadol.

Nah, I'm just kidding.

Sage is cool. I love a little angst with my hip-hop. It's just that his latest CD didn't sit well with me.

"presidential candidates can't debate over this instrumental" lol. now that's pure lyrical genius if i ever herrd it.

Well, I disagree. first of all, to say there's no consistent narrative is to ignore the body of work that he has accumulated in which he has very much put himself out there in a personal and real way.

And to say that he's not saying anything new is ridiculous. He's not talking about 'the system' -- nor is anyone who has any right to be griping about the way things work. He has a lot of really specific critiques of things that are around him and he puts them all in perspective in a really interesting way that is compelling to many. Was Chuck D rapping about 'the system' ? No, he mostly directed his criticism at ways that it was affecting his community, which was anything but ambiguous. But one could also say that his approach was scattershot given the huge number of valid critiques he had/has. Was he saying things that had never been said before? No. But it was, all the same, of vital importance for those ideas to be presented the way they were in the combinations they were presented in.

And by presenting old things in a new way, PE created something new entirely, a new consciousness of what was up. Recognizing the racial fractures of hiphop today (a microcosm of America's current and future community issues), if Sage can similarly create a new movement of consciousness among people with whom he has much in common -- one that doesn't treat 'consciousness' as equalling 'cool', rather than aware and, above all, active -- that will be just as significant.

the world is changing, and this is a new commentary. as members of the hiphop community we all have different roles to play. i respect the role that sage is playing, largely because it reminds me of my own intention to be an emcee who speaks truth and owns his role in that truth.

i guess i fall victim to the same tendency to shoot criticism in all directions that you cited, joe, but i don't neccessarily think that i -- or Sage -- should apologize for it. If you can't see the artisty inherent in 'Generalize my disease, i need a taste of what it's like / living off the fat of kings, i play the scab at your hunger strike', and how well that speaks to the paradox that one must embrace to both own one's role as a privileged person and as an activist -- and how important talking about that particular struggle is for many people right now, and for American progress in general -- I don't know what else to say.

"presidential candidates can't debate over this instrumental" is ridiculously genius, joe. are you seriously being sarcastic? do you have any appreciation for wordplay? look. at. the. syllables. sheesh.

But, I'm really interested in what you said about how you haven't seen evolution. What sort of evolution are you looking for? And how would you contrast the evolution of the underground, so-called-"indie-hip-hop" scene versus the rest of it? I definitely have my criticisms of it too, as a member of it, not to mention the fact that it's completely comfortable being wholly separated from, and unaccountable to, anyone else's definition of hiphop. And that this division largely falls upon racial lines, especially here in ultra-segregated MA. And I do see a schism that I hope will go away, although that seems less and less likely. I would be eager to hear your thoughts on this.

Joe,
You really don't know what you're talking about here. And you're not nearly as smart or informed as you think you are. The counter-argument to the mainstream explosion of hip hop wasn't anticon. How could it have been when anticon hardly pushed over 10,000 records until Personal Journals? The counter-argument to "bling" (or whatever) was De La and Jeru, among others. In that tradition there was the whole Rawkus/Fat Beats movement, which had a much larger base than anticon has ever had.

Anticon was informed by the (purported) Rawkus ethic and also by a much older musical movement that had been a largely west coast phenomenon -- most notably reflected in Project Blowed and related artists. In that tradition, musically at least, they fit right in. Early anticon got much of its sales from the websites (ATAK, for instance) whose niche was Living Legends, Project Blowed, Log Cabin and so forth. They were clearly not in any dialogue with Jay-Z. And they aren't now.

Not to speak of the fact that Sage Francis is not a member of anticon, so to speak. (And, of the real members of anticon, which of them is making music that relates at all to the music that Jay-Z -- or even Murs -- is making right now? Pedestrian? Dose?)

Sanneh's diatribe is equally pointless. I can imagine the high-fives and backslaps that Sanneh will receive for this trite, unimaginative review. New York...

yes, i see. candidates rhymes with debates. credentials, presidential, and instrumental all rhyme. its still stupid.

and may i say that you are reading a lot of meaning into sage's words that isn't necessarily present or obvious. yes, he touches on interesting themes, but only in a negative way with no suggestion of a solution--unlike chuck d who, while speaking out against the ills of society, always suggested a positive outcome and the potential for betterment of a community. Plus, I always knew what Chuck was talking about. Just cuase sage says my uzi weighs a ton doesn't mean you can compare them.

And this:

'generalize my disease, I need a taste of what it's like Living off the fat of kings, i play the scab at your hunger strike.'

means next to nothing to me. it has all the characteristics of a non sequeter as far as the overall flow goes.

Since I haven't actually listened to the album I'm not going to comment anymore.

okay--i'm going to comment seeing as how this whole section is moving faster than I can keep up with.

icarus: you're right, i'm not that smart.

i don't mean to speak strictly about anticon--that's why i say "and associates (of which sage francis is a part), and all other alternative, suburban, anti-rap rap"

when sage says i like 99 rappers but jay-z aint one, i'm supposed to think he's not a counter argument to the mainstream?

de la and jeru predate the obscure white kid internet movement by years. Their rap has way more in common, musically, with the mainstream than anything sage ever put out. And for your information, fatbeats stocks all jay zs g-unit's singles. so whatever movement you're talking about, it doesn't exist.

Oh god... the "generalize my disease..." line is only non sequitur when disembodies from the rest of the text. In context, it's brilliant. Not to imply that a good rap need be plenary in context, but "Slow Down Gandhi" certainly is.

The Chuck D comparison is pointless, Sage and Chuck are different people, of different times. Sage admires Chuck D. But even when you speak of Chuck, you're wrong.

"speaking out against the ills of society, always suggested a positive outcome and the potential for betterment of a community"

That's false. Chuck wasn't always prescriptive and I'm glad for it -- and it wasn't his responsibility to be anyway. Chuck's proposed solutions, like supporting the NOI, for instance, were when he slipped up the most. Thankfully, he understood that recognizing a problem is the first step in crafting a solution.

This is boring. That NYT piece is still bad.

why is it brilliant? like I said, i'm dumb. so if you care to explain, please do.

if this thread is boring, comment on this:

only white people will buy this cd.

I'm not white.

And I bought the CD.

that was easy.

I like Sage Francis. Haven't heard the new album. I like K. Sanneh. Wondering where he hears all this anti-mainstream positioning going on. Non-prophets and personal journals don't really have much of that. Maybe it's just the new album. Ahh well, time to go listen to Fat Pat.

> that was easy.

Mmhmm. So is everything you say. And so is Kalefa's article.

I'm usually a fan of Kalefa but, as I just told David, he took a shortcut on this one. In lieu of listening, he relies on the safe new york hip hop platitudes that diss or ignore anything that doesn't really abide by their rules. We're a bit into, now, the second decade of them ignoring Mikah 9.

you gotta admit that 90% of the people who purchase this album will be white. Probably 75% of those will be from MA or another cold climate. They'll practically all be teenagers or college students. I know something about these types of whites being one of them myself. We love to glorify depression, especially in music and especially in our teenage years. The easiest way to appeal to a young white kids emotions is to bitch about all the things that are fucked up in the world and with ourselves in a grandiose or poetic way and offer no solutions. Then throw in a story or two about self mutilation. Then disrespect authority. Becuase white kids love to listen to that stuff while they are driving a car their parents bought them or in their college dorm room. is that hip hop? these are all symptoms of the basest form of nascent intellectualism and and sentementality. That's what sage francis appeals to and that's why his audience is a bunch of teenage white kids. And icarus. But god forbid that he should acknnowledge any weakness in sage francis' music. now tell me that i'm generalizing and racist and if I had a clue i would think sage francis is the ill shit.

joe,

"living off the fat of kings / i play the scab at your hunger strike". come on? do i really have to break that shit down? it would be embarassing for me to have to do that. but i will, if you really need me to.

as far as your last comment -- i agree, in a way, and i recognize that what you're saying is true about me and about many of my less-self-aware friends who are into sage francis. but there is nothing WRONG with that. it's only a bad thing, in my opinion, when it is unaccountable to the rest of hiphop. at best, this is a way to introduce a huge number of non-oppressive white folks into what has always been a multicultural community. at worst, it's a way to introduce a huge number of oppressive white folks into what has always been a multicultural, anti-racist community.

it remains to be seen whether sage and other white underground emcees can successfully introduce our peers to a culture that has no interest in them if they are to bring with them eurocentrism, white supremacy, and oblivious privilege into the hiphop community. otherwise, this is going to be very bad for hiphop in the long run. but worse than the other kind of white interference in hiphop, via moneyed industry exploitation? i'm not sure. but even as privileged as sage's fans might be, as the internet's first hiphop star, sage is not beholden to anyone who has a business interest in maintaining oppression, as anyone -- be they white or a person of color -- who does business through the traditional industry is.

the internet is changing everything. i would rather the hiphop community spend its time talking about how to channel the events of art and culture towards anti-oppressive actions and deprogramming, rather than have its white members seek to separate themselves from new white heads entering the scene. this detachment is not healthy. we should take responsiblity for preserving hiphop be getting rid of white supremacy and blocking its entrance into our scene -- not by blocking individuals, but by countering those ideas... both in ourselves and in our white peers.

that's one of my current operating principles, at least.

joe,

btw -- another reason why that review is unfair is that Sage's '99 rappers but jay-z ain't one' rap is just like a 10-second interlude during his set. he's clowning on jay-z, and it's as simple as that. it's not a big deal, and it's not part of his overall message, and so it was stupid -- and misleading, and easy, and a host of other things -- for kelefah to mention it.

embryo:
o.k. i will be the first to attempt to break down what everybody else seems to think is so obvious and easy, but no one is actually willing to say.

"living off the fat of kings"--a shot at people who have no concerns becuase they parents have loot.

"i'm the scab at your hunger strike"--sage is putting in work, while others ironically complain about a system that is nourishing them (but not him, apparently).

and this, generalized, is his disease?

alright, i was exaggerating to an extent about it not making sense. but i still feel like he's intentionally talking above people instead of to them in a very elitist and intentionally esoteric fashion, about being excluded from elitism ironically (again). It all boils down to isolation on one level or another, which is not characteristic of most hip hop but is characteristic of the type of music I've been criticizing.

Overall, I agree with what you said. A white person's place in a hip hop community is a very tricky thing. They better do they research. Its an especially tricky thing to be a white mc. I prefer to DJ. I think accountability, as you said, is absolutely essential.

what a garbage review.....
"A drawn-out version of "Sun Vs Moon" only highlighted the ill-considered lyrics: "God's not a woman/ He's a big white guy in the sky/ And the deserts are reflections of his eyes." (And he wonders why some rappers stick with crime and clubs?)"
whoever wrote this review is a moron.....there's no need to even discuss this.....

Credible people write stupid things.

Word, Joe, good to know that at least someone is on the same page as me in regards to that pesky accountability thing.

But I think you missed the best part of that line: first of all, to be a scab is to be the one that sells out the strike, right? And it's a hunger strike, which, first of all, is a completely weird thing to put in that context, because you can't really scab a hunger strike.

But if you could set it up so that made sense, it would be clever as hell. Which, lo and behold, is what the preceding line does -- living off the fat of kings. Which I interpret as....

As a white dude, I can be down with underprivileged people -- "Yeah dude, I have dreads, I know what's up, I'm going to go sit at a hunger strike with these political prisoners!" -- but when it comes down to it, I'm going to go home to my full cupboard and return to my privileged life, whereas the underprivileged and political prisoners are going to return their much-harder lifestyles... and then you can dilate that metaphor and talk about on a bigger picture level, I'm fronting on being a revolutionary but the entire time (my whole LIFE) I'm actually selling out, eating the fat of generations passed down. I'm sitting in my privileged chair, raining down empty promises to stand by those who are struggling while I eat my twinkies. Slow down, Ghandi -- you're killin 'em.

As for the detachment -- I don't think there is any detachment from parts of this song at all, for Sage. There are a few things that he directs outwardly at people who don't realize the game they're playing, but for the most part he is saying "I" more than he's saying "you" or "they". That's why that song is so brilliant -- it names every single thing that it is, and attempts to rise above it. It motivates to rise above it.

And I think this is a CRUCIAL thing for a huge generation of white kids who aren't going to have much context for what they're hearing. I think it is much beter for them to hear Sage -- a long-time head with a crucial appreciation for the greats and for hiphip's history and tradition -- explain what's up, than it would befor them to take music that comes from major labels out of context and respond to it by letting it reinforce the racism that is encouraging them to accept a role in line with white supremacy and to use rappers as token characterizations of people of color.

hiphop*

i think that means i officially lose. haha.

Slow Down Gandi is packed with incredible lyrics and wit. Too packed.

I prefer the Non-Prophets Sage, than the solo Sage. Joe Beats forces dude not too get all emo on his music.

are all these white kids that smart, that they'll get these lyrics?

are some of you saying that the way to talk to white kids is to talk in esoteric language (ala sage) and the way to talk to black kids is through street language (ala chuck d)? (you know where i'm going with this :)

i'm just asking.

j.

i just wanted to say that i hust went to sages show on saturday and thought it was asom. this is the third time i have seen sage live and he is one of my favorite performers. i did like the non prophets stuff better and was suprised to see him with a band.- though i guess new label gonna change something up- but yes i am a WHITE girl and i have always dug sage and can assuredly say that i always will.

jon-let me flip your question. is the way to talk to white kids through street language?

Your question is interesting, jon, but let me see if I can reframe it. You're asking a question about the divide between urban / black culture and suburban / white culture, for whatever that division is worth. But is it really about the angle that an artist takes? Who they CHOOSE to speak to? Or is it really more who an artist IS that determines who he can speak to?

And maybe it's also who an artist is that determines WHAT he can and should be speaking about. as a white person, i have a responsibility, within that identity, to own my communities -- regardless of my participation in hiphop. i'm always going to be able to go back to the suburbs and at least understand the mindset, and if i chose to alter my appearance, i could do so in a way that would allow me to fit right in. That's my community -- it's fucked up, it's racist, and it's oppressive to many people who aren't me, but it is my community. If hiphop is to be my community too, there's got to be ownership on my part of what that means... as much as I hate the suburbs, as much as I never want to live there again, it's a part of who I am and, also, who I'm not. How can that not come out in my music?

Now I just want to say a few things:
-I'm White (more like pink, actually)
-I grew up in the suburbs (but wouldn't live there now)
-I've been to 4 Sage Francis shows (4 different tours)
There you go..now you have a framework to help you judge me. And this is the thing I don't get about the hip-hop "community". Why do you judge everything in your insular, incestuous world against each other. Rhymes vs. rhymes, beats vs. beats, rapper vs. rapper, black vs. white, streets vs. suburbs.
Sage Francis is an ARTIST. See him live and maybe you'll understand that. Judge him against how his music or act makes you feel/think. Judging him against his place in hip hop?????
Who cares what color he is or what color you are? Are you a scientist...compiling data for a record company? You'll never feel the sublime...or really understand Sage's or any other artist's art if you try to objectify yourself and the artist. Tell me why YOU'RE moved by Sage, or not...and not why other people should or shouldn't be. Start thinking that way then maybe you can really start appreciating art or even become an artist yourself.
I don't give a SHIT about bad hip hop or even good hip hop...and great hip hop isn't any more important to me than any other great music/art.
My Dad can beat up your Dad.

hey embryo the sage song everyones' discussing here, whats the name of that song, ive heard a few times on sirius, love the song, they title it slow down ghandi on sirius and ive looked for it under that title and have had no luck, can u help man, thnx

never mind i found it thnx anyway

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