PSA: Hip Hop Is Dead... where have you been? :)

j/k fuelling the fire.. you have a piont there but remember the only people who would buy these are a) people from that era.. who are probably now buying ciara albums for their kids instead of the old hip hop they used to listen to.. they might pick up some r&b for the baby makin nights.

b) the hardcore hip hop heads who like to keep a fresh copy, people who want to rediscover a particular artist..

c) steal. they're not on neilson because they're stealing from the store, online or bootleggers via oldschool mixtapes. Old school mixtapes are great because you just get a mix a reflectionof that time.. the top 40 BACK THEN. instead of an album at a time.

People buying albums today are: into top 40 hip hop and "what's hot right now".. they buy Jeezy and Joc.. not De La and Run DMC.

But that's to be expected though, only classic albums keep selling.. i.e. Beetles.. Elvis.. we have Biggie and 'Pac they'll always sell just like Bob marley.. those will always sell ( and be stolen ) at high rates because they are all dead and all have classic material.

My mum isn't still buying Diana Ross CD's she doesn't even know how to work the CD player much less

the number one consumer of garbage hop now a days is white kids in the burbs that want something to rebel against their parents with.
in the golden era (88 to 96) hip hop was still pure and made it cool for you to be you. you know?
but now a days it looks like the only way to be "down" is to grind on atl's crunk garbage producein dick and wear a dress (tall t)
self expression is gone and everyone wants to be like the next guy! no one wants to be better than the last guy on the mic.
mediocre = cool

i started buying cds in '94, so all my old stuff is on wax and cassettes, but lately i've been going back and trying to re-buy some of the older joints in cd form -- i usually use half.com or some other used used marketplace venue, so these sales won't register with nielsen.

another reason is simply that a lot of older joints simply haven't aged well in the ears of younger listeners. this especially true for many of the tracks that emerged from the james brown school of sampling ['86-'89]; to older fans they'll always be dope, but they nevertheless sound dated for a younger head who may be trying to get a grip on that sound.

finally, the larger reason -- which is tied into the "hip is dead" argument (which i don't buy, by the way) -- and which jay alluded to, is that there is no sense of connection between current rappers and their predecesors. lupe's comments regarding tribe are disgusting, but they make sense in the larger context of hip hop fundamentally being a youth genre. mainstream hip hop isn't "dead" as much as its current style, rhythm, and aesthetics have simply passed many of us by.

in fact, i can't think of another genre where there is such a large disjuncture between past and present. its extreme presentism allows for the tossing around of moronic comments like lupe/tribe or jeezy trying to clown monie love (and the london scene).

compare those comments, for example, with a group like the Killers. In every interview promoting their latest album they mentioned how Springsteen had greatly influenced their thinking and how their stated goal was to create a contemporary version of "born in the usa"; groups like interpol also cite bands like joy division as their inspiration.

could we ever imagine a rapper today saying that they hoped to create a modern "criminal minded" or "nation of millions"? probably not...

[ironically, the craptastic Game, in his incessant quest to name-drop and link himself to west coast greats, may be the only mainstream rapper who embraces (and emulates) his predeccesors...]

good music is timeless . but personal taste is what it all comes down to.
for example...
I HATE SNAP MUSIC!
but it seems to please the younger audience. even though that disgusts me ...
but who am i to judge?
i like some southern hiphop
i was raised on scarface and the geto boys, im a fan of outkast ( didnt like their last two albums though.)
and i do like screw music ( only the original s.u.c tapes none of that mike watts bullshit )
that stuff is true southern hip hop to ME.

I think this is more than about Hip Hop, its almost like the youth genre seems to think that they are more sophisticated than those of prior times. Meaning there is this superficial psyche that is impregnating the kids of today , i blame good ol' American commodity . Kids these days have everything at their fingertips ( i may be only 18 but shit i was poor so the whole convenience thing kinda flip flops), with that factor in mind also comes the ease of money making which has basically raped this expressive art form. Actually i think thats an even better arbiter to use, kids now a days just emulate the next thing , and the next , and the next . The culture that we live in itself is robotic and i think it takes a toll on not only the youth but what the youth produce .Hip Hop in general just seems like its going through another one of its many phases , and if it was really dead i dont think Nas should have made a song to make the point relevant , he should have just sat back with his wifey and chilled off the money from his last few records.He is proving a prominent point and i think this last album is definitely a turning point for other artists to gain some artistic coherence and feed this genre of music a more nutrient diet. Oh and by the way the Lupe line just shows how much of a gimmick he is , who the fuck wouldnt buy a tribe album ??!?!

I'm surprised the sales numbers for those albums are so dismal, but I've been aware of this generational divide in hip-hop for a minute. From my perspective, if I watch MTV or turn on Hot 97 once in a blue moon, it seems their sense of history goes back about to _Ready to Die_. Maybe, if you stretch it, to _The Chronic_. I'll notice an old Biggie joint played in the mix, but they don't reach back further than that (unless it's a specially dedicated "old school" mix -- does Hot 97 still have its old school at noon show?). Why? I'm not sure. Some reasons which make sense have been touched on above. But young folks reach back to classic rock of the 60s and 70s, despite modern rock not sounding like that at all. Why should modern hip-hop fans feel so detached from '80s hip-hop which is much more recent than the Beatles or Stones?

Do the albums named in the Times article just not have staying power? I'm sure most of us have identified music which might be "hot" now but which we are sure won't mean anything to anyone in a year or ten. Now, I think the albums named in the article are classics, as most people here would. Stanley Crouch would say they're garbage, though he couldn't tell the difference between Run-DMC and D4L. Maybe we're biased though. If not even young rap fans are buying _It Takes a Nation_...maybe it's not as classic as we thought it was? As we think it is? To me it sounds as amazing now as it ever did, but if the next generation doesn't see that magic, is it there at all?

Of course, consider the 2Pac phenomenon. Now, he primarily falls within the post-Dre, post-Biggie parameters I mentioned above. But still, there are mad teenagers who seem to worship him, and they couldn't have even been aware of him when he passed. I like some Pac, never loved him, but there certainly seems to be something about him which does matter to the next generation. And it can't just be his attitude or whatnot, because that shit fades with time...I mean, his movies and shit are around, but younger folks ain't seeing him on interviews or whatever every week. Ultimately what must matter to them is the music.

It seems to me rap careers are lasting longer than they used to. I wonder if this will change the way the future fans relate to the past (i.e., now). If they have a more direct connection to the past via their modern heroes who were around back then, perhaps they'll be more likely to look into the music of that earlier era. Of course, in some ways LL seems as big now as ever, but his old shit is one of the albums selling feebly according to the Times, so who knows...

...........hip hop is dying; and its dying because other underlining cultures are dying too. Underlining cultures that are more important & fundamental then the sub-culture that we call hip hop. Many of the older emcees (although they were raised during operation flood the minority communities with drugs, thus the steady decline of the black community that was right starters, and prone to question their existance in white america) were raised with a little better morals and respect for those that came before them........... it was only a matter of time before it reached the throat of an art form designed to enlighten and free those imprisioned in the social ills that is the ghetto of our own minds, and choke it to death.

classic rock still sells copies because classic rock radio bestowed "classic" status on Dylan and the Beatles -- by playing the hell out of them, and deliberately shunning Journey or whoever were on the charts when the format got going. that created the whole notion of a Classic Rock Album, and thanks to outlets like Rolling Stone and every newspaper making the same "best albums ever" lists over and over and over, those albums have been seen that way ever since.

rap critics do the list making, but there's no popular outlet (radio, TV) for classic rap. if Public Enemy or Prince were played as often on the radio in America as, say, Led Zeppelin or the Rolling Stones are, you can be damn sure they'd be seeing a lot more in royalties.

Konijn said something that is a big reason of this

Most of the oldschool cd's I buy are used so will not be registered and I think there are more used before albums sold than new ones

Well I personnaly believe there is more in common with contemporary hip-hop and it's old school roots than most of you, so i won't really touch on that, but I will say there aren't many outlets for golden era hip-hop like there are rock and pop conterparts. I'm probably proto-typically, right smack dab in the middle of both theoretical (and i do mean theoretical) hip-hop eras of old and new, so i grew up listening to the sugar hills, ll's, boot camps, wu-tangs etc. But my more formidable years were spent with the dmx's, random rawkus guys, pastor troys and whomever else is out these days. My love for hip-hop is the same, point blank! Too bad it isn't for more of you.... anyways, my point is old school music in most genres is celebrated in mutiple venues. Oldies Radio stations, tv (although u don't see too much of this in any genre any more since VH1, MTV and BET have totatly changed format, ie. stopped playing fucking videos) and hell even Vegas showcases and big reunion tours bring the old guys back into the forefront. With hip-hop your lucky to get 20 minutes of old school mixing at lunch time on a urban station. Don't blame the new generation of rap consumers every time something doesn't jibe with your own personal taste, most aren't exposed to those artist and albums when an impression can be made. If you ever take any advertising or marketing class they'll tell you consumers are not born they are made. So stop whining and get the next generation when there young, bump that "low end theory" when you pick up the youngin from preschool, build that bridge and it will stay connected forever.

Well to be honest I am quite surprised that those LPs are selling 400 copies per week. I think that is prtty good for a 20 year old album that most people who want it already own. 400 copies per week, every week is strong sales for me.

Lupe said he will never own a 'Tribe album? Now it's all starting to make sense.

You know, I'm not really trying to knock the guy, but after the release of his lackluster, album that was filled to the brim with simple, non-sensical rhymes that were not full thought out, I really can't find anything nice to say about him. And now, after reading that this idiot, who was supposed to be the "saviour of real rap", would come out of his face to say that he wouldn't give a fucking, TRIBE CALLED QUEST album a chance, I am contemplating on committing a murder.

I can't deal with this new breed of self absorbed mainstream acts that place themselves above those who did it so much better than they ever could. Fuck Lupe! When he drops an album that does not make my fingers itch to press the skip button after every song, then he can begin to talk about others.

actually i think he said it before his album dropped.... but what ever
i still think papoose is better.
the only thing rappers have respect for nowadays is the money.
i mean look at rakim ... greatest emcee of all time AND the first rapper that was ever signed to a million dollar contract and the new generation of rappers dont give a fuck about him! a mil is nothing when you got 8 figures
money=respect
hip hop aint dead its just corrupted.

Has anyone forgotten that Soundscan is a (relatively) recent addition to Billboard's method of tallying record sales? What was it, 1988 or 1989 that they started using it?

Before Soundscan, it was a rarity for an artist to debut at #1 on the charts. You had to be Whitney Houston or Michael Jackson to accomplish that.

A month after Soundscan started, Skid Row and N.W.A. both had albums that debuted at #1 on the charts.

Only thing is, they debuted at #1 and slid off quickly. Before Soundscan, a #1 debuter would STAY at #1 for months, perhaps even a year or two.

In the post-Soundscan era, very few albums have stayed in the Top 100 for longer than six months. Shania Twain is the only recent artist I know of whose album stayed in the Top 100 for over a year.

Add to that the fact that any kids who like Old School rap are probably burning copies from older heads, or just downloading it for free, and you begin to see how the disparity between old school and new school is really not that big.

I see a lot of people reading way too far into this... this is nothing new... rap/hip hop music has always been about the next best thing and on a whole the "culture" has always been kinda trendy...last year's gear won't sell either, and I venture to say there are as many one hit wonders in rap music as any other genre... I think the thing to worry about is that not enough young people are taking an interest in the foundations....but I don't think that's anything new either... I think our awareness of these things is growing as WE get older, lol...

Oh yes...and to add to my comments before...we also gave away rock, blues and jazz so someone tell me history isn't simply repeating itself...again, none of this phenomenon is really new, imo

i too was kinda depressed by the article but i did have some reservations about them comparing older albums (Pink Floyd) to ones that are relatively new (Public Enemy) in comparison. I think the legendary status is conferred over time and when those albums get older the catalog sales will climb. That being said, I do agree that there is a distinct lack of sense of history in hip-hop in the outlets that do exist. The other thing that doesn't bode as well is the nature of the market to nurture this. Traditional radio stations trumpeted classic rock formats but even if classic rap formats did exist they would be competing with the ipod, downloading and satellite radio realities we have now which classic rock didn't have to contend with initially. i think the extent to which these realities are harnessed for the classic music will determine how well it is remembered. it's also another reason why i think comparing sales from records from different eras is a bit misleading.

It seems that hip-hop has become just another unfortunate victim of the process of "not improving with time". The current generation seems to have little or no memory of how it was in the beginning, and doesn't seem to care!

I'm not sure if hip-hop can be saved amongst the young people in our current generation. Maybe if there were a way to "meld" the technology of today (such as IPods) with the art from of yesteryear....

.........I really believe what's going on in hip hop music is just another manifestation of much serious issues within the black community. The fact that white kids are the number one consumers of our product is just another manifestation of negative underlining issues we (blacks) have going on within ourselves as a people. I am willing to argue that in terms of our dismantle-ment during slavery and the morbid maintenance & nurturing process of post slavery, which is still going on now; which is designed to keep niggaz separate and useless to one another in terms of 'nation building'.......... we remain separate along complexion lines, class lines, and cultural lines. The young are total aliens to the old, and I don't think I need to mention the gender gap so I won't. This situation makes it hard for wisdom to be passed down from the old to the young, from man to man, from woman to woman, from father to son, from one gerneration to the next, etc.. its no mystery to me young people today don't respect the cultural chain of command in terms of hip hop music today, a chain of command that gives hip hop music depth and direction. That's why I believe it was sooooo easy for corp. america to robb us of our hip hop, and along with it, our true sense of expression. Instead of representing what's real, we rep what big business says we should rep., they are pimps and all other participants are whores.......

^^^

That's a very good point, Evenwhenilie.

Worve up.

-Black People

man hip hop is not dead

man hip hop is not dead

..........no nisha, you're right, hip hop isn't dead! but the dayz of truth telling put into lyrics, and the acceptance and promotion of such music is gone. but like the neurotic acts of social withdraw, and premature questioning of one's sexuality can be a tell tell sign of child molestation, we tell the truth of our experiences and our own proclivities evenwhen-we-lie..........

hip-hop in a way is just a victim of it's own success. Twenty years ago those records were very rough in quality giving the music itself an edge, which inturn led to the increased following, sales, etc... As time progressed the quality of the music did as well. There's no way a disconnect cannot be formed. How is someone who was born the year the chronic came out going to feel about a 15 year old Dr. Dre track versus a new one. There's no comparison, in sound quality, in musicality, in any way shape or form other than the mood that music creates because of it's place in history. Hip-hop took such accelerated strides that this was inevitable. Phil Spector wasn't producing Run tracks in '86. You didn't hear Springsteen on a De la soul track...ie. Adam Levine. Listen to an old break drum beat done with layered samples and compare that to classic 4 track recorder rock. Again, no comparison. Current produceres now produce like professionals, current samples are generally of other musical formats, rock, soul, anything really. Not really classic hip-hop except for the drums which are now digitally mastered. Rap is the ultimate "you had to be there" expierence. If anything music today will transend more so than ever because the production is so much better. In deviating from the old, the new may keep the old school in perspective enough to allow those who can appreciate it to to do so even more becasue there is such a disconnect.

I'm sorry Reb. And it is usually unlike me to only post responses without something original of my own on the board.

But I must say.

The production these days is not better.

HipHop is an underground sound. Born out of scratching and rapping over breaks.

When these breaks are lost, the sound of Hiphop falters.

It's like putting Splenda in Kool-Aid.

Sure it'll be sweet, but it just won't be the same.

Breaks and ill samples define HipHop production and help reproduce the music as it was in the height of it's lifecycle.

Long live the breaks.

Long live scratchin'.

-Black People

The old music isn't selling anymore because the people that were into it have outgrown it.
Back when I was a kid I would often pass fithy mouth kids while walking with my Mother. She would be highly offended and would warn me not to be that way. Now those filthy mouth kids are on the radio also. Why would I want to by or listen to that crap? That is what the new generation wants, filthy, misogenous, unintelligent dribble. Now, I am not one who goes on and on about the so-called "good ole days". There was never a time when rap/hip hop/b-boy was considered to be the social conscience of music. It just wasn't as offensive as it is today. The problem with the music today has nothing to do with the music. after all, the music used today is the same music I listened to 30 years ago as a teenager because of sampling. The problem is the lyrics and the mental rut that we are in now.

Musically, rap hasn't done anything different since 1975. Lyrically, rap has gone to hell in a handbasket. Sales of music from 20 years ago may be diminishing but 20 years from now, the sale of todays music will be non-existant.