I can feel the same frustration that Bennu is feeling. I had limited exposure to Hip Hop in early days. But I still managed to listen to some of the greatest Hip Hop music (I've moved to Alaska from Japan in '83 when I was a kid, Alaska is hard place to find music back then). I remember listening to tapes like Public Enemy and KRS One & BDP Posse. I think from around latter half of the 90's, we have started to see more "bling" music. I have to agree with Bennu that we don't have those togetherness anymore where bunch of mainstream artists get together to record socially conscious music. If you take majority of popular hip hop music, they are all talking about same BS...big ice, nice cars, huge mansion, stacks of money, excessive intoxication, and getting laid by many women and treat them like shit. As Bennu mentioned, there's hardly anything that are being said on mainstream hip hop music that are relative to average listeners. I mean, average people can not relate to those excessive things that artists mentions in their music. So I do agree with Bennu that it seems like more and more mainstream artist are into self indulgence and nothing else. I also think that masses are blinded by marketing and for some reason people are buying into these "crap". I personally don't want to hear some person singing about how much money, hoes, and drugs they got. Or how much jewelry they carry and what not. Way I see it is that mainstream hip hop is insulting me and the listeners by putting out those crap (definitely insulting my intelligence). Anyway, I really don't see why these crap are still being supported by mainstream listeners (why pay $12 to $18 for crappy CD that you only listen couple times before it gets dusted).
But I have to disagree that Hip Hop is Dead. If I remember correctly, when I first got into hip hop music, I didn't find out about them via radio nor TV. I found out about them by word of mouth. Then I went to the store and dug around for those tapes. It was about 3 years later when "Yo Mtv Rap" surfaced and I was finally able to see and hear Hip Hop on television. The thing is that this is still the same today. I rarely find good music through mass media (TV and Radio). I usually look around internet or goto the record store and listen to whatever that catches my eyes. I just think people are too lazy towards music. People need to realize that if they really want to hear good music, then they need to go look for them. People shouldn't wait until major labels and mass media spoon feeds what they think is hot for them. So I just think people needs to realize that what you hear on TV and radio are not the ONLY choices. If you look around, you'll be surprised by some of the good music that are circulating currently.
As to those mainstream musicians that are discribed by Bennu as being self centered and being excessive... I think it is just a natural progression. For example, remember hair bands in the 80's. Late 70's when they had that "British Invasion", hair bands were still in early stages and they were still struggling to achieve statuses in the industry. Then came the 80's... Remeber all the self centered excessive lifestyle those hairbands displayed after being exploited by the record industry. It's the same thing with hip hop. In the beginning, there were not much money or fame involved. But once industry noticed that Hip Hop is Money, then all these artists started to recieve bigger pay (more like advance...) and that's when artists became more self centered and excessive... because they were able to do so. Back in the early days of hip hop... most of the artists were not making as much and didn't have the opportunity that artist nowadays have (to lead excessive lifestyle). So my question is that if those artists in early hip hop days did have ways to make money like they do now, do you think that they would still be doing what they did then or would they turn out to be people like Puffy, Nelly, Master P, or Ja Rule? It's sad but the reality is that it is not all about music anymore because people know that they can make huge sums of money thru hip hop. If you are looking for artistic integrity over huge payday, then you should not even consider paying attention to mainstream music period. Let's just say that motivation for major hip hop recording artist is different than what it was.
At the end I miss the days when we used to rock
Africa necklace and "X" hats. I miss when we used have fat laces. I miss conscious music like X-Clan, PE, and KRS-ONE(BDP). I guess I got to be devil's advocate and admitt that mainstream Hip Hop is all about money... nothing else (it's business, not music). Otherwise we wouldn't have all these crappy Hip Hop music out there because if I were some of those artists, I would be embarassed to admitt that I made those songs. Mainstream Hip Hop is DEAD! It's watered down and no substance. At least we have legions of underground artists out there that still uphold higher interity than those major recording artists. Amen to underground hip hop, because without them I probably would have abandoned Hip Hop years ago.
Isn't it funny that Hip Hop used to represent life of the streets but now Hip Hop is trying to dictate what life of street is and should be, when what they are saying is completely untrue and unreal. Don't people get tired of hearing same type of songs with same topic over and over again? Hip Hop used to show us what's going on in poor urban neighborhood and things that needs attention in our society. Now all I hear is how many girls they slept with, how tough they are, how much money and materials they possess... yet they still claim that they are down with the streets and neighborhoods? BS! they are down with money, greed and power all for themselves. Give me a break and don't insult my intelligence!

I actually liked Bennu's piece because of its title, 'F*** Hip-Hop.' There are a lot of times when I see this mainstream culture and think exactly the same thing. Thankfully that will die soon, if it isn't dead already, like Musashi said. And those Mos Def quotes are enlightening. I wasn't really old enough to truly enjoy hip-hop back in '88 because I was seven years old. I was listening to my Dad's Cuban jazz! heh. Spectator sport vs. Participant sport; that is an excellent way to describe.

i just did some work with dead prez and the entire experience was like 1991 all over again (which, for the most part, is a good thing), so i can still find slivers of what i used to love about hip hop, but it's few and far between.

well, good or bad, I don't know, but it is a reality. It's happened to all forms of music to originate from the African American community since the advent of radio, even jazz to a degree has coopted and rearranged. The difference now is, and this is an important difference, the mainstream has been more willing, sometimes demanding, to hear rap music that is presented by African Americans. Until recently the mainstream found it hard to accept substitutes. Even the Beasties were considered a novelty act and slipped from the top of the pop charts to college radio semi-obscurity.

I didn't share Melle Mel's experience, though I was raised deep in African American culture. So am I a legit fan or not? It's a more complicated issue.

And there's this conceit that in the old days, everyone was rapping about poverty and hard times and kicking knowledge. Not at all. Remember The Sequence? Funky Four Plus One More? Cold Crush? Rap music was not always a window into "our" world nor "the CNN of the black community." Those are things rap evolved into doing; it grew and matured when some artists appeared who saw the music had potential to do more that provide an alternative to disco, who knew that rap could and would be more than just a fad.

It's that evolution of rap music, especially the creative explosions of the late 80's when PE, De La, The Tribe, Latifah, etc showed the world what rap could be. I think the popularity of those bands on college radio around that time made hip-hop a force in popular music as much as getting airplay on MTV did. The kids programming college radio went on to become music critics, DJs, etc, and like it or not, they were instrumental in letting mainstream culture hear hip-hop.

Once anything enters the pop culture lexicon, it's fair game. Madison Ave is gonna try and capitalize, kids from the sticks are gonna try and become a part of it either as passive fan or, like Elvis, an active participant. People like Jaime Kennedy are going to try and use it to make a fast buck. That's how are capitalist game is played. It's good and bad, but mostly indifferent.

As far as the old days, of course anyone who tries to say hip-hop started out focusing on overtly political or "conscious" messages is mistaken, and I would never suggest that.

But I would argue that Sequence, Cold Crush, etc, most definitely were a window into our world. The thing is that you don't have to offer politically charged or socially conscious messages to provide such a window. It's just like Mos Def says, those little things that he describes, those seemingly mundane details that are given in the music, they offer a snapshot of our reality. They are part of a genuine, shared cultural experience that was being conveyed.

I haven't gotten to read Bennu's piece in it's entirety yet, so perhaps I should hold onto my comments for later. Then again, the points that you articualte here jay resonate with me deeply. Having grown up in the Bronx in the 70s and 80s as hip-hop moved from being a culture...to a commodity, I feel a lot of what you express and likewise understand Mos Def's contention, and perhaps indignation.

A lot of folks nowadays, talk about old skool as the moment Run DMC hit the scene. I often get into arguments with folks, b/c they feel I think I am a know-it-all about hip-hop and ....

DAMN I had like two or three more graphs here and strangely this miraculous backspacing began happening and I couldn't stop it. So I have lost my train of thought. Perhaps, some divine intervention out there did not want me to complete my post.

Anyway, I was mainly talking about the foundation of hip hop...its four pillars and that what people are disappointed with nowadays is rap music and its commercialization as well as the negativity that is widely expressed in much of its lyrical content. (For a minute, I took you back to the Bronx to much of what I experienced.)

Hip hop did not evolve, but rap music became a commodity. Hip hop has taken many other forms as many of its foremothers and fathers are now doing other things in the community and in the business world.

There really was no glory days...then too it was for entertainment purposes. There was a lot of party and bullshit but not so much violence in the lyrical content.

I think it will keep changing and never really die. I just wish people would stop calling what they see on MTV and BET and hear on Clear Channel hip hop...it's rap. It's about the business of rap music, and is an extension of the music industry...which is something quite different from Herc plugging into the city's power to throw a block jam, or Seen bombing the 2 train, or the Rocksteady crew breaking, or the Cold Crush Brothers battling the Treacherous 3.

Yes, there was a moment in hip-hop, those days of X - Clan, Public Enemy, and that ilk. But even then, they were only a fraction of what was happening. Shoot, I was pissed when the music took off and went by itself onto vinyl and the radio... b/c a lot of what was happening on the streets was lost. It's realness...it became a bubble gum pop...packaged for radio. And then it took various directions...and landed in NWA land, which forever changed what the corporate machine felt was its viability.

SInce the music was Donald Byrd and James Brown as well as Kraftwerk and Cerrone...it was funk, jazz, rock, blues, etc. and even today continues to build upon those influences and often remixes those influences into new compositions...then I would also have to say that the music will never die. It will keep evolving.

I am just curious what folks feel the true essence of hip-hop is anyway that they keep getting so angry about it. I am curious to know what hip hop means to a lot of folks...how they define it. B/c for me, since I am not just talking about music when I speak about hip hop it will continue working in my life, b/c it is a sensibility and sometimes an aesthetic.

Damn I hope I made sense here, b/c when that strange spooky backspace thing started happening I was freaked out and really lost my train of thought.

I will now read Bennu's entire piece.

I hope I didn't say too much here jay.

Thanks for sharing this and I am looking forward to your part 2.

first off, when these debates arise, the first thing that comes to mind is this quote from the poet, Queen Sheba, "it does NOT belong to you". hip hop does not BELONG to me, you, or anybody else exclusively. it was born in the streets, but it does not belong to the streets exclusively. it was born in the Bronx, but it does not belong to the Bronx exclusively. it was born out of the black struggle, but it does not belong to us exclusively. it's time we bury these hip hop purist ideals, and wake the fuck up.

people love to speak on the "golden era" of hip hop. but if you look at it closely, what really made that era so dope was the fact that, we had seen an evolution. in '89, cats had taken hip hop somewhere very different than cats were taking it in '79, '84, and '87. the styles, clothes, slang, music, graffiti, dance, djing, it had all evolved. it was new and fresh. fast forward to 2003. the reason people say hip hop is dead is because, it hasn't evolved. money, cash, hoez was like '83-'85. back then it was rope chains, porches, and Moet. now it's platinum chains, bentley's, and Hypnotic. where are the new dance moves? new djing styles? when is the last time you saw some graffiti art that was groundbreaking? in '93 everybody was wearing Tims, it's 2003, everybody still wearing Tims? the same hip hop slang terms have been around FOREVER. hip hop ain't dead, it's just stagnate.

as for mos def's comments. i agree, but it's not just about white kids. think about what n.w.a.'s music did for black kids who lived on the East Coast. it allowed them to travel, to hear new dialects, and styles, and culture. it let them know everybody didn't ride L trains and subways. it said baggy jeans ain't the shit, it's khakis and tee shirts. this is hip hop at it's best. hip hop has been woven in to the fabric of not only black culture, but amerikkkan culture, and the worlds's culture. i don't speak japanese, but the minute i pop in a wu tang album, i have something in common with a kid from around the world. that is power. until the participants in hip hop stop emulating, and start creating, the culture will continue to deteriorate. hip hop will never die, as in, it no longer exists. however, if the hip hop that once represented everything that was new and fresh continues to represent everything that has already been done, that will be a reality far worse than death. quit trying to take hip hop back to the glory years, it's the 21st century, it's time we take it forward.

hardcore...wow. reminds me of something is say about black folks with technology advances...how we become participants and consumers but not creators. but you also made me think of something else. hip hop around the world is happening differently. don't know if you saw the last issue of The Source, but this site details a lot of things that are going on around the world in hip-hop http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/doss0.htm

I would also say that what happens next in hip-hop is probably going to be a global thing.

I'm finding artists like Roots Manuva and Ms. Dynamite and other UK acts taking the risks. Or cats like K-OS out of Canada.

And there is this transition of Hip Hop DJs dumping MCs to make different kinds of records. When you have cats like RjD2 and the X-ecutioners and movies like Scratch, you can see some transition.

What I also think is true is that changes in the mediums in which we receive music has also changed how we perceive what's out there. What I think people feel like is missing from Hip-Hop right now is the variety that was vibrant in the music back in the day (whether that day is 89 or 93 or 85). I know that I often think back and marvel that I was listening to X-Clan and Pharcyde and P.E. and Kwame and Three Times Dope and 3rd Base and Hammer all at the same time. I don't get that same sense of variety and freshness now that I did then but maybe that's because I'm more limited in where I can see and hear the music.

Because rap is everywhere now, I think we feel like we're seeing a lot of the culture and the music of right now when in reality it's the same 10 to 12 artists over and over again. Which is such a small part of it.

But in 91, if somebody said to me, oh you gotta hear Paris, you gotta hear Tim Dawg, have you seen that "Daddy's Little Girl" video...I had easy access. It would be on tv that week, somebody would pass me a mix-tape with it on there.

Now...People talk about "Little Brother" all the time but I haven't seen a video, I haven't heard a track...unless I go buy that CD or download something off the internet it's not in my field of vision. I hear all the time that Jean Grae is hot but I still haven't heard any of the music.

Why is that? Is it because I'm older or is it because the scene is different or is it because commercial success has increased exposure for a few but severely decreased exposure for the many?

I'm leaning towards the latter and I'm not sure whether or it's good or bad or just different.

I wanted to point out that since high speed connection to the Internet became readily available, my choices of music became much larager than before. I was caught up in all the commercial bullshit around late 90's till early 00's and I was burning out at that time (I realized that all these artists were recycling the same crap over and over again---not gettin' any better), but since I stopped listening to commercial radios and TVs and paid attention to word of mouth via internet websites and forums, I now have more music available to me than I can take. Many have told me that since this independent/underground explosion via interent, there are too many to weed out and try to find good music out of them. But at same time I think internet helped unknown artists to recieve instant globabl exposure via word of mouth, even without big promotions and budgets. When I think of groups like Atmosphere, People Under the Stairs, and Livning Legends (Murs), I believe interent played huge part in their sucess as independent/underground artists. So I believe Hip Hop in general is oversaturated from both major and underground scene. I understand that it is getting harder and harder to take time and weed through all those wack underground shit just to find that one "gem". But I rather be "diggin'" for that one excellent music than to settle with mediocre crap that are being played on radio and TV. So I feel that Hip Hop branched out so much more than it used to be and there are few choices if you just look at the cover, but if you open thoses pages... you'll realize that there are more than you can handle that are out there. I guess i personally have more time on internet than average people, because most of the time I just look and listen for music that interests me and put them down on my "want list" so I can purchase those vinyls at stores. I strongly suggest that more people take advantage of internet and be exposed to music that are outside of what are being played on radio and TV. Most of the Hip Hop that I enjoy nowadays are predominantly found from various internet sites and forums. I trust opinions of regular Hip Hop fans over opinions of music industries. Anyway, what I wanted to point out was that there are so many music out there besides what we are being exposed to from major music outlets so I encourage people to look harder and don't settle with what's "supposed to be hot" via TVs and radios. Hip Hop will mutate and branch out, but I don't think it is dead nor going to die. It just that some of us may not recognize "Hip Hop" as it used to be.

For Example-
Some of the underground music I recommend:
Self Scientific
Lone Catalyst (J Rawl and J Sands)
Old Maid Millionier (J Zone, Al Shid, H.U.G.S)
Necro and Non Phixion
Sage Francis and Non Prophets
Little Brothers
Jedi Mind Trick
Mr. Lif
Juggaknots
Monsta Island Czars
Lightheaded
MF Doom
Jean Grae
El da Sensi (Ex-Artifacts)
People Under the Stairs
Ugly Ducklings
Living Legends Crew
Illin' P
LoopTroop (from Sweden)
Eastern Conference All Stars (High & Mighty, Cage, Copywrite, and Tame One)
Def Jux Crew (El-P, RJD2, Mr. Lif, Murs....etc)
Akrobatik
7L & Esoteric
Eydea & Abilities
Mike Zoot
Aceyalone
Demigodz (Celph Titled, Apathy,...etc)
....and on and on....there are so much more out there...

Your are not the only one.

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I wholly endorse the views of DJ Musashi above, in that hip hop has transformed itself to their point that there is much more diversity and depth to the mmusic than the mainstream representation of the music will allude. Another example of the diversity is the Turntablist arm of hip...Just go to Bombhip.com and look at the depth that turntablism has taken, reall that the excellent documentary on that arm of hip,entitled "Scratch." From another angle on this debate, without being preachy, recall the words of the "teacha" KRS-ONE, hip has four elements, so when one says hip hip is dying are we saying that all four elements are dying or are we really bemonaing the state of the rapping aspect of hip hip, I do know that the B-boying is still alive and well, and not to mention those who 'bomb/tag'. It is also an injustice to be making such statements won Hip about the so-called music being dead, when artistes like Ugly Duckling, Blackilious, Impportal Technique, The Coup, Paris etc are all given critical acclaim and then they recieve mediocre financial support from the fans, then when acts like those are supported and drop out the race, we then turn around then say the standard of the music is down/declining. Peace.

I'm one cold mc unsigned. I've underground for over eight years now. I'll be grateful if you can just holla back at me

I is

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I haven't gotten to read Bennu's piece in it's entirety yet, so perhaps I should hold onto my comments for later. Then again, the points that you articualte here jay resonate with me deeply. Having grown up in the Bronx in the 70s and 80s as hip-hop moved from being a culture...to a commodity, I feel a lot of what you express and likewise understand Mos Def's contention, and perhaps indignation.

Why is that? Is it because I'm older or is it because the scene is different or is it because commercial success has increased exposure for a few but severely decreased exposure for the many?

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