I generally stand up for a person's right to enjoy mediocre music. But when all is said and done, we are talking about music history. Anticon, along with many white, lyrics-oriented rappers have made a distinct break from the Black tradition that is the basis of hip hop.

It don't mean a thing, if it ain't...

I disagree that the proliferation of disparate styles is a good thing. I think it was the relatively monolithic and cyclical nature of African-American music that gave it strength and relevance. Black music adapted to the times and served the needs of the community-at-large. The Black community is losing its ability to maintain the monolith and the hegemony. The result is that other communities/traditions are entering the fray and diluting the Black foundation of rap music and popular music in general. And that is why music is starting to suck.

Let me say this because I am white and I can get away with it...

All you white kids who think hip hop is about lyrics are totally misguided. Hip Hop is not a political cause. Black artists have long used music as a cultural weapon, but the "cause" (if one might call it that) was for people to transcend a racist society, and reach out to universal human emotions and sentiments. When artists made intellectual music (e.g. free jazz) it was largely rejected by the public.

White artists, not only don't have the same type of need for transcending oppressive circumstances, but their disregard for mainstream culture often leaves them wallowing in idiosncracies and irrelevance.

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>>musical taste is entirely subjective, and by definition nobody's taste can be more or less intelligent than anyone else's.

nonsense. i bet you wouldn't be saying that if someone said "rakim is horrible and the worst lyricist ever." i mean, the very fact that there is large agreement among heads as to who is skilled says something about the objective qualities in music. there are arguments at the margins of course, but that doesn't obviate the center.

and i'm not sure what you mean by "by definition". i mean, 'good taste' is not arbitrary or mere opinion, and 'taste' in a literal sense is also not *only* a matter of opinion. people who enjoy eating cardboard surely do not have as sensitive tastebuds as people who don't.

Jingly,

Your theoretical "Rakim is the worst lyricist of all time" is a good example of what I'm talking about, because it is not an expression of one's personal taste but an assertion of fact.

If someone said "Rakim is my least favorite lyricist of all time", which merely expresses their own taste, I would indeed find myself unable to say they are "wrong" (though I would surely be baffled). But by saying "X is the best/worst lyricist", or "any intelligent person must recognize that X is good", you are presuming that your personal taste represents an objective truth. Usually when people make such absolute statements they don't mean it to be taken literally, what they are really saying is "X is my most/least favorite". But if someone actually means to say that from an objective standpoint X is the only correct choice one could possibly make, they would automatically be wrong, simply by virtue of this belief that they can be (from an objective standpoint) right.

Good taste is absolutely mere opinion. Or to be more precise, there is no such thing as "good taste". The comparison to our literal sense of taste is inapt because when you accuse someone of bad taste in music you don't mean to suggest that they are physically hard-of-hearing. The only gastronomic equivalent would be someone who does have fully functional tastebuds but still enjoys eating cardboard. If this outlandish person existed he would obviously seek very different things out of his culinary experience than you or I do. But that doesn't make his preference "bad" or "wrong" in any objective sense. He simply has very different criteria for his food than we do. Anyway I'm not sure that such extreme, outlandish examples are useful for the discussion.

There is by no means such universal agreement as to which emcees are skilled or not, and who is the best or not. There are many younger fans who would say Rakim and his contemporaries are corny old-schoolers who could never match up with today's chart toppers. And many others who would not cite either category, instead comprising a list entirely of emcees like Sage Francis and Buck 65. They each have such differing opinions because they each seek different things from the music they listen to. That doesn't make any of them "right" or "wrong".

I think people confuse "taste" with relevance and historical impact. But even when you get down to the supposedly objective business of history, we find that history is also quite subjective, a matter of perspective that is different from person to person.

People don't realize that their attempts to assert opinion as fact is the very process by which history is shaped.

I disagree, and I don't even believe you. I mean, like/dislike is a different axis from good/bad. But if you mean to say that it is impossible to make any good/bad judgements, I mean...... I will just have to pounce on you the next time you say something like X is not a good rapper and decry your hypocrisy.

>Good taste is absolutely mere opinion.

But the thing is that taste isn't arbitrary, you will find that it clusters. There are many more people who think Rakim is a skilled mc than think Khia is a skilled mc, and this obviously correlating to some actual ability to do something, with some standard of well. And communities create those standards together.

That's just what makes Anticon controversial, because they have created a subcommunity with different priorities, i.e. that they "seek different things from the music they listen to". But when people are seeking the same things, it isn't that hard to judge that something fills it better or worse.

This notion that every opinion is equal to every other opinion is hippie nonsense. *bangs desk* And that's not an opinion.

Let me handle this Jay.

The point is simply that art is appreciated in an SUBJECTIVE manner. Even if 25 million people enjoy the music of DMX, that doesn't mean DMX is OBJECTIVELY better.

When you state that you enjoy a certain type of music, YOU (the subject) are making claims about the music (the object). Jay believes -- as do most philosophers -- that assessing music is primarily a subjective activity.

As the dilemma goes...

If a tree falls in the woods with no one around... does it make any noise?

Now, you are welcome to take a different approach. But then you are either reducing art to the level of cold, objective mechanics (a law of physics, if you will). Or you can take a sort of quasi- religious view that there is no separation between object and subject, and thus subjective truths become objective truths.

Sadly, this holistic view of the world means either objective or subjective views exist, but not both. In other words, you can choose between a world where we separate objects and subjects... or you can live in a world where truth has no relative basis.

Are we all clear now?

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wtf... these people spammed my site too. i think this is a sign of things to come. weblog google comment bombs.

eric...You're white??? I thought you was High Yeller like Rod Woodson (maybe it's a bad pic on your site). not that it has anything to do with anything. Just the pic threw me off.. next thing you know Jay Smooth is actually Carlos the Jackal.

"musical taste is entirely subjective" - true, but any self respecting b-boy will be fully aware that 'Shake Your Tail Feather' is a far, far cry from the roots of hip hop... remember the passion in tracks like The Show? Sucker Mc's?

Ja Rule's latest video states at the end 'hip hop is dying'... maybe that's because there are now record labels called Murder Inc? marketing themselves to teenage girls instead of breakers?
what the f**k is going on? kids would say today 'I listen to Hip Hop'.. no you don't... you are listening to some pop music, yeah it's rapping, but may we never forget the 4 elements that form hip hop culture - turntablism, breaking, graffiti & mcing.... all this bling pimp sh1t is just rapping - and exceedingly average rap at that.
A Pimp Juice drink?? it's all greed & money - having been involved in hip hop since age 6 - it saddens me to see hip hop presented to the public this way

however - hip hop is alive and well - and being kept progressive by acts like anticon, buck 65, atmoshpere, demigodz, def jux etc... at a recent live show - Buck 65 would drop his verses then turn to the turntables to bust the scratching in-between... that is soooo good to see (and hear) - something that would NEVER happen in any crappy murderinc/fabolos/50cent/snoop vide or song...

talking of 50cent - what the hell is all the fuss about? ever heard him live? ishe the most unoriginal mc in the world? if someone is going to pop him - do hip hop a favour a get on with it - as he is the world's firdt 'pre-packaged dead rapper' and on a side note - am I the only one to see past the perm and notice just how lame Snoop's lyrics are?

and on a final note - if you haven't heard it - listen to Aesop Rock's 'We're Famous'... loud... that will sort you out

Run DMC and Doug E. Fresh aren't considered classic artists because they were passionate, or even because they were "authentic". They were dope because they were in tune with something larger than themselves. They knew what time it was. They read the crowd. They gave the people what they wanted.

All this Anticon, Def Jux stuff is essentially saying "We, the artists, come first. And if dumb, mainstream fans don't get it... fuck them." The core of the tradition is INCLUSION, not exclusion. I think a lot of white kids have grown up with the paradigm of being exclusive with their music. In the black tradition, generally there is more respect for the collective.

What is with people dissing Nelly for selling records to third grade girls? I was in the fifth grade when "Raisin' Hell" came out, and it probably shaped my musical tastes more than any other release. I am glad I had "My Adidas" and all that back in school. True, Run-D.M.C. rock a lot stronger than Nelly, but don't slam a career based on fans. Slam it for sucking.

ok - it sucks!! he he... btw - that's f****n good you were rocking that back in 5th grade molly!!! I'm going to pump that right now in fact...

and yeah - i hear you eric - I wasn't bringing any white/black business into this - just quality music, the only exclusion here is half-ass whack pop sh1t... I hear also what you're saying about 'artists come first' - i dunno, tough one - I think maybe def jux in particular come across like this because of all the crap about...

peeeeace

hip hop is not mostly stale right now - if you think that - you are listening to stale acts... there's more to it than just the rapping...
but yeah - it does seem to be independents vs. majors... and the majors pretty much suck... but hey that's just my opinion... if you like Nelly - then pump it - just don't expect anyone to be backspinning to it

and about "All this Anticon, Def Jux stuff is essentially saying "We, the artists, come first...." - i wonder what tracks /acts you're referring to - and what are acts like 50 & any other 'major' rapper talking about? themselves and their diamonds... in fact - bragging etc. has always been in hip hop since the beginning...

i know anticon etc wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea - I just find it to be a breath of fresh air from the usual stuff - and very honest hip hop

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Eric you are correct or at least I agree with you as a person who has been down with hip-hop since wildstyle and I don't mean the cats who rented the movie or stole it from the web.

Miles moved at a snail's pace because he wanted to hold near and dear the purest form of art still claimed, recognized, and protected by black folks (at that time). Rock music, though created by blacks, is so popularized, that people like David Bowie have to keep recreating themselves just to remain relevant. Don't get me wrong, I think it takes a hell of a talent to reinvent themselves successfully, and I admire that, but the watered-down brew ha ha of pop music can never compare to the earthiness and realness that evokes true emotion from your soul than REAL hip hop or REAL jazz music (sorry, not you Kenny G). Remember, slow and steady wins the race.

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