the only thing worse than listening to men discuss sexism is men not discussing sexism, i suppose.

as the lovely-lipped Mega Montana, soon to be a guest on the Underground Railroad, said: don't let machoism ruin your life.

Let's take a look at the facts about women and hip hop.

1. There are not many female rappers.
2. Women are primarily sex objects.
3. Most rappers and fans are oblivious to issues of gender.

I think that about covers it. Anything else?

Here's a thought: when women stop buying, dancing to and generally supporting sexist hip hop (is that redundant?), I think that'll grab many male hip hoppers' attention and force the issues of sexism and female exploitation & ojectification onto the table for discussion for real. Of course, that doesn't explain why male fans can't and shouldn't do the exact same thing right now also, although that's less likely to happen, no?

im a little disheartened about the past comment, actually all of them -- the reduction to the "facts" about women and hip hop really supports what frustration i had been feeling. yes, i do agree with all of the statements but i feel that it really requires a committment into really looking at the complexities of gender/sexuality in hip hop in order to make a productive conversation. if it were really that simple, the solution would be to get more female mcs, turn the objectification around towards men, and air psas to make us all aware of what's going on, right?

is hip hop so incredibly male-centric for me to believe that there is no space to speak about these issues, most especially on our self-published blogs? we have no editors to tell us what to write, what not to write, if anything blogging is a streaming consciousness, the space to be critical... its an investment that needs to be taken into consideration. i hope the dialogue does continue...

eric: was that comment supposed to be sarcastic? so what if most fans and rappers are oblivious to gender? does it make it ok then for us to be oblivious to it to?

ian: i agree its less likely to happen. why dont we make it happen?

for a man of color who is invested in hip hop as a vehicle for change, and as a voice for underprivileged ppls, i think we really do have to start looking at gender issues, both male and female. i mean, the way a male body of color is sexualized (hyper for some, basically invisible for others), i don't really think you can attack issues of race without understanding issues of gender as they are played out through a racial lens. so if we are invested in hip hop, which is an art form created via racial struggles, shouldn't we be also invested in creating alternatives for white, male, heterosexual norms?

here's a quote to ponder: "if you have come here to help me, then you are wasting your time. but if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then come. let us walk together."
-lilla watson

to me, men of color and women of color are bound together in fighting racism, sexism, homophobia, class structures, etc. and i agree with lizelle, men (of color) who are invested in hip hop really need to be accountable to the art form and their communities to be invested in challenging patriarchy too. the dialogue in my mind is, how can we do that?

I am all for talking about all kinds of stratification and inequality, so don't anyone take this the wrong way, but: what place does a discussion of gender have in hip hop? and, Why should it have a place at all? What would we deconstruct?-- the "scene," the portrayal of woman by artists, the underrepresentation of female MCs, the problems someone like Jean Grae has getting signed? Or is it just to widen the discussion that hip hop brings to the table of different inequalties? All of the above? I'm just not sure what purpose it serves-- and I'm not saying it doesn't serve any purpose. I just want to understand what purpose this discussion would serve. That is all.

Strangely enough, I just posted a long-winded bit of gender navigation:

http://www.sleepnotwork.blogspot.com/2004_03_14_sleepnotwork_archive.html#107949300679850060

Unfortunately, I doubt the actual content is going to make many of the people demanding dialogue terribly happy.

I think Ian is right to point out the strange lack of any substantive feminist viewpoint in hip hop - the question of how and why women like Lil' Kim and her ilk have been force to participate in their own exploitation is probably the biggest gender issue we've got.

oH, and the other big gender issue would be how black men are portrayed - In fact that's probably a bigger issue. Because while aggressively sexual female rappers are contributing to their own exploitation primarily within hip hop, black male rappers who perpetuate slave-era stereotypes about black male sexuality are contributing to the exploitation/subordination of black men throughout society.

I would be remiss to not write about the issues she raises. My mom is a woman, my wife is a woman and my niece is a woman.

Additionally, there is no need to lay blame on all women for the actions of a few.

I could list examples of some posts on the subjects but that would seem like I'm being defensive. I have no reason to be. Also, I would suggest to anyone to check out http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/ . The blogger does an excellent job at examinging these issues.

David,

I think you are marginalizing Lizelle's statements by insisting that the greater gender issue is the black male potrayal. There are a number of black male figures outside of music to counteract those stereotypes. I can't say the same is necessarily true for women.

Take the film industry for instance. Denzel, Wesley and Don Cheadle play a variety of characters, however castrated their characters may be. Women in film, black and white are relegated to either sexpot and repressed, single, bookworms or even kept married women.

Metalface,
I think it's a narrow statement to make that "Women in film, black and white are relegated to either sexpot and repressed, single, bookworms or even kept married women." I won't start naming films or anything, but that's just not a sound point to make.

Also, I don't think David marginalizes Lizelle at all- his point is a good one and one that I think always gets left out of any discussion of gender- what about the men and how they are portrayed and what they have to live up to? The issue of male representation in hip hop is the overwhelming issue, if for no other reason than that hip hop is a decidely male community.

I don't think that that either issue is mutually exclusive. I think that we can discuss both men and women in hip hop simultaneously, without having to "marginalize" either gender.

Actually, Sally I'd like you to name names. I'll stand on my take.

I'm simple saying David was getting a little off the subject of Lizelle's point. How does the discussion now move to how Black males are portrayed in music videos. It's painfully obvious that black men and women are "played" in music videos. Black women are money grubbing, booty-shaking, p-popping whores in videos. Black men are all the things David described but that's again getting off track.

So, what I here you saying is that because say Ludacris has to live up to that Black male as over-sexed predator, it is reasonable to believe that these rappers, can be given license to then treat black women as ground meat. You're kidding, right?

Hit me up with your addy so I can send you a copy of Lil' John's Greatest Hits when it drops.

I think you can't just look at media portrayals when it comes to this stuff, though - there may be a variety of black men outside hip hop, but for better or worse, black women simply have been more succesful in the wider worlds of business, academia, literature, etc. My statistics may be a bit old, but I think black women are much, much closer to white women in income and authority than black men are to white men. What this brings up is that 1) there's still a gender gap, racialized or not, and 2) society devalues black men more than it devalues black women.

What's the paradigm of how white America views black women? Oprah, Starr Jones, Maya Angelou, fingersnaps and "Girlfriend!" You don't need to tell me that this is its own kind of racism, but it's nothing compared to the mainstream American view of black men as mean-mugging, ignorant thugs.

And I do think this is relevant to the discussion at hand - it's about gender, not just women. You can't discuss sexism without discussing both sexes.

MFace,

My comments above were simply meant to widen the discussion of gender in hip hop and not narrowly restrict it to being just about women. After all, female and male only exist in a binary with the other.

And, I wasn't suggesting that because both men and women face sterotyping it makes it okay for one to denigrate the other. Ludacris fulfilling some version of masculinity is not okay because he's oppressed as a male, nor does it give him license to be an "oversexed predator." I don't think I made that point at all, and if I did, I misspoke. I was simply trying to point out that there is dual dynamic at work here: women and the stereotypes they deal with and men, and the stereotypes they deal with.

I would never rubber stamp anyones behavior when it's harmful. I would only say let's try to take it apart and understand it.

Re: positive portrayals of women in movies:
XMEN
Gas Food Lodging
Living Out Loud
Boys on the Side
Next Stop Wonderland
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Lara Croft Tomb Raider
Foxfire
Working Girl
Mystic Pizza
Girls Town
Ghost World
Monster's Ball

The women above are neither repressed, bookworms or kept. Some might be single, but I didn't see that as negative.

I stopped here because I felt repetitive. The argument is a little silly, right? Sometimes women are represented negatively, sometimes they're not.

Good enough. Thanks.

Deep intellectual debates like this are not my forte but I've tried to address this issue in my current blog post.

Lizelle done started a ruckus (a beautiful ruckus that is) about the unbarable silence of gender issues by the dominantly male hip-hop heads.

I will never be a worthy voice of feminism. Simply because I am a dude and can never replace women's voice. Men can, however, be a voice of sexism--being both accountable and deconstructive. Silenced sexism among the worse of its kind because it maintains and perpetuates patriarchy.

Discussions on hip-hop and sexism often correlate the two like bed pals. Sexism is in hip-hop but hip-hop is not sexism. Artists like 50 Cent, Lil' Jon, and Wu-Tang are young, sexualized, black men. Knowing that, they would be horrible feminists. Should the reality of their sexism be silenced or even reversed?

Is the problem that sexism is in the art? Or is the problem in the saturation of sexist art? Perhaps there's a problem that there's a bunch of counter-sexist/feminist art that doesn't get play/heard/consumed.

Sexism is a hot commodity, especially for white males who make up 70% of the mainstream hip-hop consuming market. Let's face it... non-rap, white-male art forms are forbidden to express certain kinds of sexuality. It's bad p.r. and not very Christian for the middle class. There is sexism in hip-hop because America is sexist damn it. The hip-hop scapegoating generally reverts the entire responsibility of sexism on artists who simply "got mad flow" and "tight beats."

Boycotting "sexism" is like reverting to Christian rap. Sexism still exists, its just concealed better in sucky music.

I think we ought to continue support of hip-hop artists -- the men and especially the women -- by understanding that popular music is rough territory but of incredible value. There's so much negotiated to represent being a person of color, the underclass, and still get play.

The relatively few women of color who have made incredible strides to add dimension to womanhood have done so against heavy tides--Queen Latifa, MC Lyte, Lauryn Hill, Erykah Badu, Missy Elliot, and, yes, Lil' Kim.

Most importantly, fighting through such currents has proven these women are loud and definately not wack. They've made voice through innovation, talent, intelligence, fierceness, and are complex even if the reception of the male audience is miles away from par.

As far as being a male hip-hop head, I think its important to recognize that although a person of color, being sexist is a lot easier for me than being counter-sexist because there are little reprecusions or socialization that prevents me from benefiting the patriarchy. Men generally have the most liberated identities: they can accepted by women to be dumb, smart, sexual, or wimps. Ideally, countering sexism is not about creating a culture of mascunline-repressed dudes, but realizing there ought to be serious reprecusions from harassing women at clubs, concerts, or any arena (because it's NOT solely about hip-hop). And more importantly, women deserve the self-determination that men have way more of. They, too, can be dumb and unsexy (even though that is less the case than men). Honestly, guys really deserved to get slapped around a bit for wallowing in selfish pleasures. We really should be interested in what a number of female voices have to say and the pleasures they seek, because there isn't one singular voice of holy positivity nor is there as much of a multitude to express it.

I hip-hop voice that still resonates is Bell Hooks in her article available here:
http://stevenstanley.tripod.com/docs/bellhooks/misogyny.html

oh yeah... sucky sexist music isn't just christian rap because a lot of it is dope. i should point out far more subversive sexism in genres like emo and indie rock.

majority of people who consume hip-hop are not the percieved "hip-hop generation" which makes me question this:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0411/davis.php

Sexism has changed in its definition. Is is really degrading to women when Lil' John makes a song that he knows will get women shaking their rumps in the club? No one forces the women to bump and grind-- they dance as an expression of having fun. This used to be seen as sexist, until women started talking about things like stripping and porno movies as "empowering". Now, it is seen as feministic... weird, eh?

Times have changed, and because of that, issues like racism and sexism have changed. We need new lenses to see these issues through. And until MCs can look at these issues in the proper light (that is to say, using new lenses and not the old ones) the issues will be on the backburner.

The fact is, sexism exists in every level of society and culture, but hip-hop gets picked on because it is so blatant in the genre. But rockers can be sexist too-- in fact, they get away with it most of the time. Blink 182 has porn star Janine on their CD cover, but if a rapper did the same thing, he's seen as an unrepentant sexist. I see the double standard, and MCs need to get braver, and address these things. This will take time to do, but it can be done.

I think the fact that hip hop gets picked on despite the rampant manifestations of sexism in other cultures is true. Recognizing that double standard should reinforce ppls commitment to fighting the sexism that actually exists, so that this culture can set a liberating example. It's not that we are being influenced by the conservative forces that are scapegoating hip hop, but more we are concerned members of a community that do not like sexism affecting us.

I think it's a hard argument to make that what black women go through in the media is "nothing compared to" the sexualization black men go through. Refer back to Oliver Wang's posts on the "oppression olympics." (sorry, didnt know how to link it) Basically, the way a black man (and let's say men of color so this isn't just a black/white issue) is sexualized and racialized is in direct connection to how white patriarchal heterosexist norms are set up. These are the same norms that oppress women of color. Thus, there really is no basis for comparison; what's important is that these two communities (men and women of color) really understand that together they are stronger, that feminist movement should be able to link men and women together.

sally: this may be nitpicky, but in your list of movies, do you know which depict + images of white women and which are depictions of women of color? i would argue that monster's ball and crouching tiger weren't very positive images of women of color...again, sorry if i'm being nitpicky, but i think the dialogue changes changes when we don't see race and gender as linked.

Vince,
I probably didn't make an evenly distributed list regarding race. MFace had mentioned the fact that both black and white women get negatively stereotyped, so I just went to town and listed movies with women of all different colors. But to break it down: Living Out Loud represented women of color and white women, Mystic Pizza represented ethnic whites, Boys on the Side represented white women and a black lesbian, Girls Town represents Black, Hispanic and white women.

Let me say this: It is definitely a good point that women and men of all colors get negatively stereotyped and represented in movies, music, most forms of entertainment. My naming a few movies with positive imagery doesn't counter this point. The point I was really trying to make, is that at the end of the day we all know we can name movies that represent people positively as well as negatively. The larger issue for this particular discussion started out as "Hip Hop Bloggers: why are you (not) addressing gender?" And i was just trying to think of a different way to think about the question. Discussions of sex and gender always seem to come back to "but he calls women bitches!" or "Lil Kim is exploiting herself!" I would guess that we are all familiar with lil john and ludacris. I think the more pertinent question, and I thought it was what Lizelle was bringing up in the first place (I could be totally wrong) is Why is there no discussion of gender in hip hop communities (like blog rings)? Part of it we've addressed above but I think there is other stuff going on.

It's really not enough to name movies that do or do not represent people negatively or positively because ultimately it proves very little. I was (immaturely) responding to MFace's challenge.

all that said: i thought halle berry's character was independent, strongwilled, smart, charasmatic and emotional- a combination of traits that rarely gets embodied by a black female character. granted i wouldnt want to be her overweight son-- she was a little rough around the edges-- but i also wouldnt have wanted to see a character presented as bland, one dimensional and without conflict to satisfy some kind of political correctness.

I just wanted to add:
"...Thus, there really is no basis for comparison; what's important is that these two communities (men and women of color) really understand that together they are stronger, that feminist movement should be able to link men and women together."

Vince, you are *so* right. Thank you for saying that.

Until women learn to de-objectify themselves and think independently... they will continue to seek validation from men who don't fully appreciate confident, indpendent, and outspoken women.

It is generally easy for women to get sexual attention from men. Often, it is hard for women to simply avoid this attention. And thus, the natural sex appeal of a sexy woman is both a blessing and a curse. And this is definitely not the situation for men, who are almost always the objectifiers.
Therefore, men largely base their self-esteem on their accomplishments, while many women continue to base their self-esteem on relationships with men.

I feel sorry for women who feel they must wear high heels and push-up bras to be attractive. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy when you dress yourself up like that. You will attract precisely those men who view women as sex objects.

Only when women start behaving more like men will things change. Women need to be more casual in their dress. Women need to speak their mind. Women need to criticize stereotypes. Women need to be avoid abusive relationships. But above all else, women need to see themselves as the intellectual equals of men, which they are.

well at least that's what i think.

sally: thanks for the breakdown; it helped me understand a lot more where you coming from, and recentered the question for me also. ie. how come gender is ignored by many hip hop blogs? i agree, i think there's a lot at work here, and i hope things can change as ppl recreate what it means to "be a man."

eric: wow. just based on what you wrote above, you aren't taking any responsibility for your male privilege. you border on saying that sexism only exists because women allow it to exist. or at best, what i get from your statement is that men have no business in fighting for gender equality cuz its not our problem, or our fault. is "behaving like men" really what women should strive for? why do they have to do that just to be considered an equal person?

sexism, just like racism, is structural. it cannot be combated simply by ppl changing their lifestyles. If i use ur arguments about men and women, but change it to whites and ppl of color, the arguments then become absurd, dont you think? consider, "until people of color learn to de-obectify themselves and think independently...they will continue to seek validation from white people" or "only when ppl of color start behaving more like white ppl will things change." racism and sexism are structural ills, and all ppl of color, men and women, must combat them, seeing that race and gender are linked for us.

eric: i agree that women should be more empowered and take more responsibility for their own actions, be self determined, recognize when they are being objectified etc etc etc but they can hardly be expected to take responsibility for anyone else's actions. even if all of us women stopped dressing in whatever way you think results in sexism (and by the way, why can't a women wear high heels and push up bras AND at the same time NOT be seen as a tramp or doing it just to attract men? can you address that for me?), do you really think this would reverse inequality? you have a responsibility, too. everyone has a role in understanding and breaking down inequality, even if it's not inequality directed at you.

also, as vince pointed out above: "you border on saying that sexism only exists because women allow it to exist." vince's only point that i disagree with is that i don't think you "border" on it. i think you are saying plainly that until women stop acting and dressing like they want to be oppressed, they will continue to be. dangerous.

thanks for the thoughtful responses, both vince and sally.

i agree that there are structural and institutional forces at work, but i do put the responsibility on individuals to change their lifestyle, just like environmentalism or racism. i see it as bottom-up activism, as opposed to top-down legislative style activism. it all starts with individuals taking responsibility for their actions (or, yes, relationship to the authority structure).

laws can only do so much. this is about how people treat each other and themselves.

i guess i'm not saying women should act like men, but that we should work to overcome the divisions and not always view the other gender as intrinsically different.

as for high heels...

i encourage any woman who wants to look taller and appear to have longer legs, to wear them.

to this list we can add shaving legs and armpits. can anyone tell me why women do it, while men generally don't?

Unfortunately, much like racism, sexism is a double edged sword. I feel empathetic towards women who are honestly pushing the equality envelope. I feel even more empathy when their cause is muffled by appearance driven and shallow women who portray themselves as potential sexual objects.

I'm not addressing the male involvement right now. I'm speaking on behalf of women: the first step to ridding sexism is unifying, in my eyes. While Trina, Lil Kim, Foxy Brown, or Emcee Bad Nana Bitch #32 continue to make records telling women to shake it for the fellas, you won't get there. If magazines like Cosmo and Seventeen, with underlying messages such as, "you just are not good looking enough," continue to be published, you won't get there.

Just like there are women who see the light, there are also men. But just like there are men that see women as objects, there are women who see themselves that way. And that's a damn shame.

Peace in the 2004, knockin' on ya' door / that's what the fuck I'm going for.

Milo

I agree with Milo that sexism is a double-edged sword. What I hear prevalent in hip-hop is a sense of underlying fear about sexuality and gender - period. There's a subtle "finger-pointing" of proving just how womanly and manly someone is, and heaven forbid if you're a conscious-thinking, independent, and individualistic human being of color who just lives, dammit! Oh, then that just sets everything ablaze. Case in point: I could give less than a damn if Missy digs girls or not. She has a strong presence, yes, but is she not a woman? You can be a sensitive soul like Common, you really can...What I resent is a generation of folk wanting to keep us all in a definitive box - that's just not right and I'm sick, sick, sick of it. It's derisive and damaging, and most importantly, we miss out on connecting with interesting and mentally and spiritually stimulating people who listen to that unique beat within their heart.

"The fact is, sexism exists in every level of society and culture, but hip-hop gets picked on because it is so blatant in the genre. But rockers can be sexist too-- in fact, they get away with it most of the time. Blink 182 has porn star Janine on their CD cover, but if a rapper did the same thing, he's seen as an unrepentant sexist."

so true. and this is where we need to take a look at the bigger picture of gender and race roles in our culture. dave hit it on the head: it's about GENDER not WOMEN. the issues exist like yin and yang.

all hip-hop is doing is reflecting our collective american beliefs about who black men and black women are. it's not *JUST* the media. it's not *JUST* the artists. they don't exist in a vacuum. read "a different mirror" by robert takaki for more insight.

notice that the stuff that sells is the stuff that perpetuates the stereotype. and the ones who buy are typically the ones with the cultural clout to create those stereotypes. and yes, i'm speaking in code. but i'll leave it to you to decipher.

Jay,
you started the conversation. But what are your thoughts about this?

I don't believe that there is sexism in hip-hop. The rap game isn't out to shame females, they are out to help people realize that there are a lot of "bitches" running around. the term "bitches" does not refer to the whole female sex, it refers to the females that make it a point to get as much money off of guys they can. "bitches" are the ones that are having children for the sole purpose of recieving an extra check every month. "bitches" do exist and they know who they are. rappers don't rip on the nice girls because they dont have to. thanks for blowing it out of proportion though people.

Media Group Project on Hip-Hop

Media Group Project on Hip-Hop

One comment the politics about that is about to change. ..... just think a female artist world conscious oriented, sexi as hell, with issues of feminism, infidelity, the state of the world, and diplomacy efforts, and vocally as smooth as a female LL. Its all about uncharted territory. Feel me? Email me to discuss further.

I don't like sexism either way against men or women. but i feel really bad when i hear rappers calling women bitch or whore every second word. i love rap music a just wish sexism did not exist.

This is worse than listening to men discuss gender issues!

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