Chuck D vs. Kanye, Satchmo vs. Dizzy

March 29, 2004

Chuck D vs. Kanye, Satchmo vs. Dizzy

MTV says Chuck D took a few jabs at Kanye West recently, wondering why "somebody gets top-notch producer credits for speeding up old records" and assessing Kanye's mic skills thusly: "I think his lyrics are decent but 85 [percent] of cats rhymin' have the same voice with little difference in cadence. That's like the NBA having 200 six-foot point guards."

Whatevs and probably many others have taken delight in these remarks, and that's understandable.. Kanye's album has gotten so much hype his own mother must be sick of it, and his ego could certainly stand to get taken down a few notches. Plus, that whole sped-up vocal sample thing is due to jump the shark any day now (and I'd guess Kanye is well aware of that).

But for me, the first thing Chuck's comments brought to mind was Louis Armstrong's almost identical rant about the younger generation of be-bop pioneers like Bird and Dizzy. Louis wondered why they were getting so much acclaim for just taking a few of his old riffs, as he saw it, and throwing them together to make a bunch of "slop" with "no melody."

Obviously, although Armstrong's influence is all over Be-Bop, there was also much more to it than what Louis was letting himself hear. Likewise, there's more to Kanye's body of work than just "speeding up old records," even if you ignore his tracks like Dead Prez "(Bigger Than) Hip-Hop" that don't fit the stereotype at all.

Chuck of all people should know better than to make such snap judgements, since so many Public Enemy tracks could be just as easily dismissed as straight James Brown loops. Heck, they even had the nerve to loop the same JB record twice for two different singles, "Rebel Without a Pause" and "Night of the Living Baseheads," and then use it again on the same album, looped backwards for "Terminator X to the Edge of Panic." How is that any different from what Kanye's doing, except that Chuck's crew didn't even bother to speed anything up?

Does this mean those PE records were not creative, that they didn't bring anything new to the table? Of course not.. that (at least in part) is the genius of those Bomb Squad tracks, that they took these bits of sound without altering them very much at all, but by isolating them in a different context made you hear them in a totally different way, and created a sound that hit our ears as nothing less than revolutionary.

I'd never claim that Kanye's work is on that level, but what he does is not so different, taking these old soul samples and making them sound fresh in a new context. Doing this effectively is much harder than Chuck makes it sound, and the way Kanye makes it seem so easy is a testament to his skill on the boards.

Is this just a pattern we can never break, each generation turning a deaf ear to the next one's artistry, dismissing it offhand like a bunch of crotchety old Abe Simpsons? Dizzy Gillespie looked at Armstrong's attitude like this:

Entrenched artists, or the entrenched society, always attack anything that's new coming in, in religion, in social upheavals, in any field. It has something to do with living and dying and the fear among the old of being replaced by the new. Louis Armstrong never played our music, but that shouldn’t have kept him from feeling or understanding it. Pops thought that it was his duty to attack! The leader always attacks first: so as the leader of the old school, Pops felt that it was his duty to attack us. At least he could gain some publicity, even if he were overwhelmed musically.

I doubt that Chuck feels "overwhelmed musically" by Kanye, but I do wonder if it's just inevitable for each generation to get caught up in this cycle..

----------

P.S. - needless to say, I'm not equating Kanye with Bird and Dizzy, or Chuck with Louis Armstrong for that matter

P.P.S. - All of this is assuming Chuck was not misquoted, always a very real possibility. MTV credits it to a post on his website, but I didn't see it around anywhere.

P.P.S. - latchkeykid showed me where Chuck's original quote was, at publicenemy.com, a brief passage in a long post where he seems to be thinking out loud on whatever comes to mind. Since then he put up an equally lengthy (but worth reading) response to MTV's coverage of the quote, here.

Chuck now says he considers Kanye a "superb lyricist," and says "the knock wasnt exactly on Kanye outside of the fact of the perceived slap at education."

Well I'm glad you cleared that up, Chuck, and I agree with most of what you're saying here. But you didn't say any of that in your original quote, so you can't be mad at MTV for quoting what you actually said instead of reading your mind. Your charge that "I bring up a point of critical analysis, and they cant even cover that sht right." is unfair, cuz you can't accuse someone of taking your words out of context if you never provided any context for them in the first place.

Why am I pretending to talk directly to Chuck? I need to get away from the computer for a while.

Posted by jsmooth995 at March 29, 2004 04:07 PM

Comments

It's on Chucks March 2nd post, near the end.

Posted by: LAtchkeyKID at March 29, 2004 04:46 PM

Thanks.. Chuck has so many sites (rapstation.com, bringthenoise.com, slamjamz.com) I didn't know where to look.. I tried publicenemy.com but didn't see it there, they should make the navigation a little clearer.

I see he has a response to MTV's thing up now.

Posted by: Jay Smooth at March 29, 2004 04:55 PM

I love you jay

Posted by: s2 at March 29, 2004 06:30 PM

The difference between Mista Chuck and Kanye West is this-- when PE & the Bomb Squad first started doing their thing, they were innovators. No one else had done what they had done. Everyone started riding on that JBs sound, even Mr. West Coast himself, Ice Cube.

However, Kanye West owes his whole "sound" to Wu Tang Clan's RZA. There's nothing innovative about it-- he is a good producer but everytime I hear his sped-up beats I think "Shaolin dick rider"...

Posted by: Sex McGinty at March 29, 2004 08:26 PM

I don't like Kanye's production for the simple fact that being a producer for 15 + years has forced me to be more creative than simply looping things. I would have appreciated the sound more back in 92-93 but in the days of supper fast technology, a good producer should have no excuse for taking lengthy samples and getting away with it. Roc obviously has the connex and loot to pay for sample clearance upfront but for someone like me, a producer and a musician, he ends up sounding like a talentless hack. He's not a bad lyricist but his delivery leaves a lot to be desired.

He just sounds like all the basement MC's/producers out there and that is his appeal.

Posted by: Kelron Magnanimous at March 29, 2004 10:55 PM

music is very cyclical. from samplin to synth to sped up vocals. its always changin especially in hip hop, but its essentially the same. now kanye and just and everyeone else, are uses the samples that have been used over and over, but speedin em up and changin em, makin them into different songs. for example. rose royce im goin down, had been used before, but jb used it in a different way 'sped it up' and 'chopped' it, etc. it just how things change. no kanye isnt an innovator or a great creator but hes good at what he does and that style is popular now, it will fade soon like everything else does, but the true test is if he can change wit the times and adapt. and as far as his rhyming skills, i think that besides his content, his style and or lyricism isnt really that complex or that good. compared to say a jay-z or eminem or nas. contest wise nothing he is saying hasnt been said before, i just believe he is on a label that has the ability to make his music more accessible to the masses. talib kweli, common, mos def... have all made albums that didnt focus on that negative things like gunz and drugs, but they neva had the support or success that kanye is having, and i think its partly due to his production(which is pretty important now a days in hiphop) and the label hes on.

Posted by: blacksmith at March 30, 2004 01:03 AM

What people need to start realizing is that, at the end of the day, there's no science to it, it's just the nod factor. Kanye's music appeals to people, that's why he's popular. And it annoys me to no end when people complain about why someone is popular with what they do. It's a matter of personal preference. We're not all meant to understand why the next man likes what he likes, so there's no need to write dissertations trying to guage someone's musical relevance due to their popularity. People need to start to choosing their battles a bit more carefully. If his music was a detriment to society, then speak up. Otherwise, chill out.

Posted by: nOva at March 30, 2004 02:55 AM

Kanye produced Dead Prez's "Bigger than hip hop"? I didn't know that.

I feel Chuck to a certain point. But that whole MTV can't get it right is b.s. It's sad that this probably will get more coverage by MTV than PE's last album or any other positive things Chuck is doing.

Posted by: quimby at March 30, 2004 03:55 AM

I think I heard (somewhere)that Kanye is supposed to be Hip-Hops savior. Its gonna take a lot more than Kanye to save Hip-Hop. !I dub thee bubble gum rap era! I miss pac, I miss "Harlem world", I miss a whole lot of the Old School that me and my roomate spent hours talkin about last night.

Posted by: Julion-5 at March 30, 2004 10:05 AM

I've deemed myself a 'mouse potato' -- There's just so much going on out there!

Posted by: leftcoastchic at March 30, 2004 06:55 PM

I like Kanye West even though i am sick of the sampling and sped up crap, i think he is a good producer, i don't think he is the savior of hip hop but mainstream hip hop needs a guy like him to help promote underground talented artists like Common, Kweli, Mos Def, Dead Prez,etc. He could be better but the lyrics that are usually spit on TV and radio he does offer something a little bit different and trys to make some songs not talking only about drugs, guns, etc. I'm not sure that he produced Hip HOp for Dead Prez, i though Tahir produced that beat, i still think it is Tahir, he is also a dope producer and rapper that get's no love, please make sure who produced that beat, i guess i'll look into the Let's Get Free CD today and see who got the credit for the beat, i can swear it was Tahir, Peace

Posted by: intifada at April 1, 2004 01:52 PM

Comparison, though rightly acknowledged as inconsequential, between Chuck D and Satchmo, Kanye and Dizzy has some validity in that Kanye like Dizz and Bird attempted recreate a sound that was uniquely original; however, the major difference is that Kanye, unlike 9th Wonder, Madlib, or Jay Dee, isn't really the hiphop equivalent to Dizzy or Bird. In fact, Chuck D isn't the equivalent to Satchmo; he's more like Archie Shepp, slightly original but not necessarily useful to hiphop's progression. I'd place Kanye in the long line of producers such as DJ Quick, Pete Rock, J Rocc who are in-themselves awesome and quite progressive. Perhaps 9th, Madlib, Jay Dee, Babu, Primo, are the best examples of the BeeBop generation. It's too bad that Chuck and Kanye can be lumped so casually to Jazz greats when in fact Chuck's and Kanye's body of work has even lasted a tenth of what Satchmo, Dizz, Birds, Miles, and Coltrane's (I could go on) have.

Posted by: Kofwonderful at April 1, 2004 02:18 PM

First of all- to all the haters, he's getting paid and your not. If most of you had half the talent, you would be too. Kayne's lyrics and music are both entertaining and creative being that he had to come up with a way that sells. It is not often that I find an album that I listen to all the tracks and love them. The joint is hot and he has not done anything else anyone else has ever did. If you listen to his words without your jealousness and envy taking control, you may enjoy it.

Posted by: NC'sFINEST at April 12, 2004 04:08 PM

First of all- to all the haters, he's getting paid and you're not. If most of you had half the talent, you would be too. Kayne's lyrics and music are both entertaining and creative being that he had to come up with a way that sells. It is not often that I find an album that I listen to all the tracks and love them. The joint is hot and he has not done anything else anyone else has never did. If you listen to his words without your jealousness and envy taking control, you may enjoy it.

Posted by: NC'sFINEST at April 12, 2004 04:56 PM

Kanye West is a very talednted rapper that worked hard to get where he is. His lyrics aren't like most of the commercial crap on the radio; his actually make you think. I give props to any succesful black man that started out in his mother's basement and is now a huge sucess, even despite his tradgic encounter. He could be out there killing, selling drugs, stealing or whatever else; what he is doing is making money and entertaining people. A huge change in music is coming and i"m on the "West" side, this is just the beginning. Kanye I love you and your music. Keep spittin through the fire. **** all u haters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Airoh at April 15, 2004 04:22 PM

Saw Kanye perform in Amsterdam last night and although he's not the most creative or innovative around, it was one of the best shows I've seen an American rapper deliver in Amsterdam (ussually there already blown away by our 'soft drugs', which led Redman to leave the stage twice to puke a few years ago and still come back on stage, which is a whole different quality). What I noticed is that Kanye knows where he's coming from: 'black' music of the last century. He's probably also the last to deny this, he's paying respect to these artists in song like slow jamz. Central point in my argument is that every new artist has to deal with the past he evolved from and it's not strange that 'old' artists hold a critic attitude towards these artists, it's their duty. By bringing subjects like artistic renewal into a public discussion, they make people aware that a past exists. Which for me this proces always led to digging in the past and checking out artists like PE, JB, and even Louis.

Posted by: sjoerd at May 19, 2004 08:02 AM

Kanye West is ... another voice in hip hop that is needed and, surprisingly, appreciated. Most of the you who don't like him( and it is allowed not to like the new thing, that's how creativity is breeded) who judge him on his production, first. True the sampling can, at times, be over the top, but give the man pops please.( Have we forgotten Talib Kweli's "Get By"?) This man has gotten a lot of publicity, but keep in mind this is the man's debut album. Give him time, he's around Kweli, Mos, Common, Jay, the boy'll be alright. Just watch for him, he'll do big things. All I can give is my personal opinion, and I think he's hot. He talks about subjects that I've thought about. I can identify with him. 50 and Hov handle the thugs. Chuck, Rakim, and Gangstarr are there for the old school. Different people hold down the pop sh*t. Kanye helps out those who need freshness and honesty. The average mofo who's tired of dead-end jobs, loves Jesus, holds down his craft, is intellectual and deep but loves tha bling and can't understand why, handles his family biz, and loves to be a snazzy dresser although he's broke. That's who Kanye is, that average, cool nigga. You ain't gotta love him, but give him a little respect.

Posted by: Roz7 at June 19, 2004 03:57 AM

I'm from Chicago, so when Kanye first dropped "Through the Wire", I loved it and couldn't wait for the album. I'm 28, and haven't bought a CD the first day it was released since 2Pac's Me Against the World. Roz7's statement sums up exactly how I feel about myself and what I hear when Kanye's music is playing. "Jesus Walks" is my new theme song! Now that he's doing it big, I look forward to hearing Common and all of the other Chicago artists who are talented and have been overlooked for too long.

Posted by: Big_Tone at June 22, 2004 10:53 AM

wat the fuck is that???
anywayz, everybody talkin about how "kanyes overhyped but hes still real cuz he isnt talkin bout drugs and guns", that shit dont make no sense. for one i think we need more drugs and guns to get away from this pop party all da time bull shit on the radio (especaly twista. he the biggest sell out of all time.) kanyes CD is bomb but i dont appreciate him working wit real ass artists like Dead Prez (something i just found out) and then doin a collabo wit bitch niggazz like twista, and the new slum village (i say new cuz when they had J.Dilla they were way better) all changin just to get on the radio. but every producer thats tite got they own thing, like dr.dre wit tha funk, and timbaland wit his guitars and now jazze pha wit....somethin, but it sounds cool(even if the lyrics on it r wack ex. T.I.)

Posted by: westside rider at July 26, 2004 02:44 PM

http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?t=50723

read that shit, tell me Kanye isnt a talented mutha fucker. so stfu haters

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Posted by: auto financing calculator at November 5, 2004 03:47 PM

i just wanna tell to that folk that saying some shit about kanye looping shit , come on man open your eyes , for 15 years you've been a producer and i don't think you're doing better than kanye and you ain't gettin more money than kanye , so what's your point ? if you loops your drums on a record and you get pay 15000$ and another producer do a drum track without looping it and get pay 2000$ or less .now tell me who's doing good hein?!?

kanye all the way , can't knock tha hustle!

Posted by: Bk at November 7, 2004 04:11 AM

k.west is a lot of hype as a matter of fact,as most things are nowaday,we are in an era where arts need a renaissance.

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This whole conversation is just another example of how black people can't stand to see one of our own become sucessful. Making this case worse is the fact that both Chuck and Kanya have made it, doing their thang. Why can't it be that simple? Chuck's comments were out of line, and simply uncalled for. It just gives ammo to MTV and other forms of the main stream media to perpetuate the belief that we'll all kill each other eventually if they just help us along a bit.

The problem with this topic isn't that Kanya sped up a sample or two or ten, but that Chuck called him out on it, on MTV. Hip Hop is what it is, it has different forms and different levels of artistry. But its all still our music.

And Chuck, of all people, you should have seen your comments for what they were, just another form of "Black on Black Crime" Listen to some of your own lyrics if you don't get what I'm saying. In my teens, PE opened my eyes to a lot of things in America, I just can't believe you have closed yours.

Posted by: This DJ at January 15, 2005 08:23 AM

I am not the biggest fan of hip hop but i certainly dont mind it and enjoy it once and a while. the only thing that pisses me off is that my whole generation probably had not idea what you were talking about referring to dizzy and satchmo. these 2 are my heroes and the pioneers of modern day music. even if one does not appreciate the style they play in it is great to see someone like you aknowladging their influence on modern day culture and the paralells in which the conflict between them hold. thanks for an informative article. peace.
Will

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