Jay, after reading that article from Mr O'Kelly, I will ask that you repay me for my time and lost breakfast.
According to his logic, anyone that does not fully create ALL of the music on his/her work is no musician. Does that mean most of the Motown greats should be taken off to since most had some sort of guidance from someone else for their sound or for the lyrics that were used. Or that a musician cant be considered if she/he uses a poem written by a fan regardless of the music???
Granted his argument has some truth to it. So does saying Iraq may have had WMD. Might be true but attacking on the that basis holds no weight in my eyes. But wait does that mean the Fat Boys were really very good musicians since they could rap accappella and people would still listen.

Funny, though - he's got a picture of himself with Gang Starr in his yahoo folders. He probably just likes Jazzmattazz.

P

U

N

K

.

Jay, I can see how this gets you worked up, and I know you know this, but . . . can't we just ignore these guys?

Honestly this one didn't even work me up so much as amuse me.

I could go off the deep end trying to refute those sentiments of that guy but then I think it's not really worth it. Like you guys said, he's just whack and whack people don't really know they are whack most of the time.

Anyway, the Roots? Anyway number two, let this guy try to spit on the mic and then tell me its not music. I know cos I tried and its definately music. What is music anyway? Who decides? Its really funny to me, these definitions. Lets say you're act a venue and everyone is vibing to the Roots or Mos Def or Immortal Tech, or whathave you...this guy is going to stop the show and point out we're not getting high off music?

anyway, yo Jay I put up a blog, check it out if you have time http://gabbar.blog-city.com/

grindin', you know what i keep in the lining...

damn, jay!

Actually, on a side note: a lot of people coming from the same place as O'Kelly seem to be excited about an album from Azeem with a live band called Variable Unit; the album is Mayhemystics. East Bay express and Pitchfork have both recently given it positive reviews.

Don't believe the hype: this album is a complete f'in dog. It's like Branford Marsalis and late Return to Forever with some seriously soft drumming, and the usually-nice Azeem seemingly losing his shit and going off the deep end with the illuminati shit.

Beware of people who promote instrumental hip hop over sampling - they probably have completely shitty taste and/or are hippies.

Wow, I said "shit" a lot. And messed up my italics.

That's how bad the album is. Really.

In the early days, rappers weren't musicians-- they had house bands, or they had DJs spinning the cuts.

But as sampling began, soon rap music became akin to post-modern avant-garde art. If Andy Warhol or John Cage had made beats out of samples, their work would be praised for its innovation. But because hip-hop was from the streets (and maybe because the majority of practitioners were black), rappers got dissed.

Nowadays, anyone who says rappers aren't musicians belongs in the same category of ignoramuses that thought scat singing was "nonsense" or that jazz was just "musical masturbation"...

History will be on the side of all true rappers and MCs, while the naysayers keep their heads in the sand.

btw: I used to be in a live hip-hop group back in '94, just before I discovered The Roots. From my experience (I played bass, and we had a guitarist, a drummer, and three MCs) I can safely say that live instrumentation works for live venues (as opposed to instrumental DAT tapes), but we still kept making beats from samples, drum machines and turntables in the studio. In fact, we would make beats in the lab, then do a gig where we tried to transcribe those same beats as live parts.

Our sound was more like Sublime than The Roots or Rage Against The Machine, but the MCs were ill.

I guess if you want to be a dick about it, then, no, rappers aren't technically musicians like drummers aren't technically musicians. but you tell Elvin Jones that and you'll get slapped too.

and in a world where half the beats are original and composed on keyboards...yeah, I'd say that makes you a musician. adding basslines that sound good to samples? musicianship. flipping chopped up samples into tight melodies? musicianship.

bollocks.

Jsmooth...

'Tipsy' is not a drum beat, it's a mixture of drum and break beat samples...big difference if you knew anything about drum sample technology. There is not one true snare, bass drum or tom in the beats. And James Brown samples are still very prevalent in Hip Hop...just because you're not aware of them doesn't mean they're not being used. You maybe need to check the album credits a bit more often.

As a matter of fact, the reason why I used the Brown reference is that it's widely known he's the most sampled artist...period.

So be sure of YOUR facts before you try to espouse your viewpoints.

You may call my rant, remarkably silly...but just don't call rappers musicians. :)

And yes I have a TV and radio, and they're both full of bad shows and bad 'music'.

And to the subsequent posters. I do like Hip-Hop, or portions of...but that doesn't make them musicians.

I like how my article has legs. You're just perpetuating the life of it.

I appreciate the free press!

Very intelligent of you guys? Someone calls me a punk? Uh, not really.

Very intelligent of the Hip-Hop community. I guess you can't have spirited debate without it getting personal on YOUR end.

Say what you want, but try to show a bit more class as individuals...you know, if that's not beyond you.

I have some questions for you, Mr. O'Kelly: are YOU a musician? Do you consider vocalists musicians or just singers? Do you consider the voice an instrument? What does that make Bobby McFerrin? Is this the distinction you are making-- that people who don't hold instruyments in their hands are not musicians?

Because if that IS your contention, it's not very original, and the fact that you are getting defensive about it shows that even you know what a cop-out your stance is. It would be like saying that you are not a real writer because you are online-- we both know that is not true. So why go through all of the trouble of disparaging rappers as musicians?

If you really like hip-hop, you sure fooled me and everyone on this board.

Most likely, you'll use the argument that you are trying to stir up debate, but really-- you are just interested in seeing if your article has "legs". And what I am trying to say is that your article has stubby legs. I can't speak for anyone else on this blog, so don't confuse their sentiments with mine.

"'Tipsy' is not a drum beat, it's a mixture of drum and break beat samples...big difference if you knew anything about drum sample technology. There is not one true snare, bass drum or tom in the beats."

If that's the definition of "drum beat" you were trying to use then your own example made no sense, because "The Show" didn't use any real drums either. But regardless, the point is there have been hit songs that consisted primarily of "lyrical genius and just a drum beat" far more recently than "The Show," which doesn't even fit that description on the first place. That you choose to play silly games with semantics instead of addressing that point can only be taken as a tacit admission that your original assertion has been proven false.

"As a matter of fact, the reason why I used the Brown reference is that it's widely known he's the most sampled artist...period."

Ten or 15 years ago, certainly, but nowadays? How many recent rap hits can you name that used James Brown loops?

I guarantee you won't come up with much, because not only have James Brown samples been out of vogue for many years, sample and loop-based production in general have been out of favor for arguably almost a decade, up until very recently when Kanye West and Just Blaze brought it back to the forefront. That is partly what made their sound stand out, that it's such a stark contrast to the electronic drum machine/keyboard beats that have dominated hip-hop for quite some time. The vast majority of hip-hop hits in recent years, produced by people like the Neptunes, Scott Storch and even the much-hated Swizz Beats and Lil Jon have been original compositions, even according to your flawed criteria.

So even if your assessment of sampling's artistic merit made any sense, which it doesn't, your attempt to apply that assessment as a measure of hip-hop's general creativity would only work if you ignored the last 5 to 8 years, and focused exclusively on the 80s and mid 90s (and you'd have to view that era rather selectively). In other words you're living in the past, and hip-hop left you behind a long time ago.

In the words of Dave Chapelle.....

"Im Rich Byootch"

ha ha ha ha ha! And so are all the rappers out there makin paper from what is soooo not-music.

Those silly non-musicians.....

Lionel Ritchie once told an anecdote about how he approached big-name rappers (I forgot which ones) and told them he wanted to rap also. They looked at him and said "Man, you're a singer. If we could do what you do, then we wouldn't be rapping."

In other words, kids who didn't have the pipes that God gave Lionel Ritchie made do with what they had. Some of these kids couldn't afford drum kits or guitars, so they made do with turntables, and even their own mouths. Later on, they sampled breaks from their favorite artists. THAT is ths spirit of hip-hop.

It's also the spirit of punk rock. Bands like The Ramones got sick of these bands like Yes, playing long-ass boring gutiar solos. They wanted to play also, but they didn't have the "chops", according to so-called real musicians.

In both cases, the Old Guard denied the New Wave their rights as musicians-- they claimed it was noise. And, in both cases, the New Wave ended up usurping the Old Guard, eventually becoming the New Guard.

In the future, hip-hop will be replaced by something new, not something old. Morris O'Kelly says bring back real musicians, but he targets hip-hop-- what about Britney Spears? Justin Timberlake? Why just focus on hip-hop, which has paid its dues and earned its success?

I'll tell you why he targets hip-hop-- because he wants to make a name for himself as a controversial writer. And frankly, targeting obvious targets like Britney Spears isn't controversial enough, even though his argument could be better applied to all the pop divas out there who need Pro Tools to keep a note in tune.

However, he fails to realize that accusing hip-hop of not really being music made by musicians has been going on SINCE ITS INCEPTION.

As for taking someone else's stuff and using it as the foundation of their own music? I don't recall Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page giving due credit to Willie Dixon or Robert Johnson. But in O'Kelly's book, that's okay, because Page plays guitar well.

As a musician AND a hip-hop head, I can say safely that hip-hop is music. It takes creativity to do it. Anyone can sample a beat, but it takes a musician to make it fly. Anyone can curse on the mic, but it takes a musician to make the words sound like they are meant to connect in a certain way.

I've been telling people this for two decades, and people still act like hip-hop is the New Hula-Hoop, a trend about to die out.

Like I said, history is on the side of the ones who make it happen, not the naysayers...

Hopefully the day that Hip-Hop goes out of style is Judgement Day. THe last day of the world as we know it.

*tapping glass bottles together*

Oh Hiiip-Hoppp....Come Out and PLaayyy!

Mr. O'Kelly, I do apologize for the ad hominem nature of my rebuttal. It's easy to let serious discussion slide when examining an assertion as ridiculous as yours.

Thanks to Jay and especially Sex for really laying it on the line and getting technical. I think it's vital to point out that sampling in hip hop is just the latest (and most technologically advanced) version of a process that has been at the core of all artistic creation since the dawn of humankind - you steal shit from the people who came before you, change it up, and make it your own. That's the artistic process. The difference between modifying an actual James Brown drum break and (as in the Zeppelin example) borrowing someone else's style is, in the long run, pretty minimal.

Miscellania: -Swizz Beats really puts it down on that new DMX single, with both samples and synths.

-Just to be clear, I didn't mean to put down live bands in general - they're a legitimate (if ultimately minor) branch of hip hop. But very few are any good (uh, Heiruspecs, the Roots, Miscellaneous Flux . . .), and people who are into the rest of them really do tend to smell like patchouli.

Having taken a day to discuss this issue with some friends and truly examined what Mr O'Kelly is saying. I think he may be onto something.
He is saying that a "rapper" is not a musician - and we have attacked the statement from the point of why isn't it. He maybe right, Britney Spears is a pop singer not a "musician" in that same light.
He did not say that HipHop was not music, nor does he say that any producer is not a musician, which leads me to think of someone with a great idea and no way of accurately conveying that idea.

HipHop music is more than rappers on the mic, more than drum loops, more than breakbeats and samples, more than traditional music. It is ALL of these things.
Perhaps Mr. O'Kelly's only true fault is using a bad bit of logic to start a discussion of a subject with which he thought no one would really notice or if someone did notice, would not have the intelligence to call him out on it.
Bravo Mr O'Kelly for making your readers take notice of an ARTFORM that has made the entire world sit up and take stock of who and what it really has become.

Never argue before the terms about which you are arguing are defined.

It is easy to come up with a definition of "musician" in which rappers (notice he does not say "rap") are not musicians. To have something that is formally debatable, this dude needs to define "musician" and probably define "music".

Have fun. Doesn't sound like an interesting project to me. I mean, O'Kelly isn't even a writer.

thats word, to the comment right above me. Mr. O'Kelly seems to me to be doing a scary version of "you people". Thats never a good sign, mostly its because he seems to have created figments of his imagination and labelled them as "you people". Who exactly are his "you people" and what traits do "we" share?

I would actually like Mr. O'Kelly to explain what he means by musicianship and music too. As explicitly as he can. Yeah I guess its good to have a story that has "legs" but what is your story saying? If you'd rather be known by a story that is whack than actually examine your suppositions be my guest.

www.gabbar.blog-city.com

correction

http://gabbar-blog-city.com

no www.

wow.. Did Mr Kelly suddenly lose his voice???
i enjoyed this topic. Flawed as it sounds.
I think we can safely call his rant "middle aged angst" gone wild

BTW, I have enjoyed taking his topic back to his forum and ripping him up there too. Just so he didn't have to come in here to receive his education for the week

No, Morris didn't lose his voice or his way back. Remember, Morris IS a writer and does something other than view message boards. Here are the 'terms' in which to define a musician.

And the last name is "O'Kelly", not "Kelly"...as in "O'Neal", "O'Reilly" etc.

What the newer Hip Hop generation fails to realize and recognize is that much of contemporary Hip Hop is dependent on other music to survive. Or at least, that is what it is actively demonstrating.

Do ALL Hip Hop artists sample...no. But the overwhelming majority do. Are all rappers devoid of musical expertise? No, but the overwhelming majority wouldn't be able to 'create' anything musically of relevance if the power went out or sampling were outlawed. So 'musicianship' is marginal at best.

This discussion is purely about degree of musicianship, not whether I or someone else find value in the artform of Hip-Hop. I have more Hip Hop in my music collection than I do classical music, so don't confuse my essay as indicative of a preference or slight against Hip-Hop or a predispositon to western music. Completely untrue. Yet at the same time, as they say...it is what it is, and it would be misguided to characterize it otherwise. It waddles and quacks like a duck...don't try to name it a chinchilla after the fact.

A person who only reads the Bible (or the Koran) is not to be misconstrued as a theologian.

A person who only gives ENT checkups to kids on Saturdays is not to be misconstrued a physician or pediatrician. They might be a nurse or physician's assistant, but not to be assumed to be a physician or pediatrician.

A person who only uses a calculator and knows not the rudiments of math or how the calculations are made should not be misconstrued as a mathematician. That would be the closest example to the debate at hand. Mechanical manipulation doesn't replace the need for the underlying methodology on which it is based.

The 'ian' suffix denotes a level of study of the BODY of an artform or acquired expertise, not merely a specialized form with no theoretical foundation.

In all three aformentioned examples, I explained how knowledge of a small piece of a 'pie' doesn't make you a true cook or chef...if you get my meaning. There has to be a base, a foundation in which your art stems and THEN you have a specialty. You become a general physician, then specialize in pediatrics, gynecology...etc. You become a musician and then specialize in classical, jazz, rap, etc.

That's why classical artists can often play jazz, blues, and even Hip-Hop in some circles, but not the other way around (remember the rhombus axiom statement in my piece). The musicianship foundation is in place.

Nobody questioned whether Hip Hop was relevant, an artform or a meaningful voice of a generation. I simply said that for the most part, its rappers are devoid of true musicianship. Hip-Hop predictably takes that personally yet refuses to debate it in terms of musical expertise. They debate it on the level of being an 'artform' or socially relevant, but not in music terms. Because the musical foundation doesn't exist. It's hard to fight a battle with tools you haven't sharpened.

Going one step further, nobody questioned whether a legitimate amount of practice, talent and expertise is included in rapping, or the other elements of Hip-Hop.

Parallel: I was a GREAT breakdancer 20 years ago. But at no time did I delude myself into thinking I was a 'dancer'. That would be insulting to those who actually studied dance as an art. And true dancers can dance in multiple styles for that reason.

Because one does 'something' that is part of a larger artform, it does not grant them title or credibility of being associated in the larger artform when there is no larger knowledge of the artfom.

If there was another clear example, it would be martial arts. I've studied martial arts (Hap Ki Do) for 13 years, and if it has taught me ANYTHING, martial arts has intrinsic structure, foundation, study and tenets. The very word 'martial' (i.e. militaristic) inherently means this. So for someone to walk off the street and say he's a 'martial artist' simply because he's fought in the streets for 20 years (which does require talent, skill and dedication) it doesn't qualify him/her as a martial artist. Musicianship is the same. It is a discipline, that requires discipline. It is a field of study, not just one genre that we may be 'good' at with no deference to the larger artform.

We can agree to disagree, but study of the larger artform is necessary. That denotes musicianship.

When I say bring back real musicianship, that is inclusive of today's R&B and pop music. I referenced as much in my original article. For those who asked why I didn't reference pop, I ask why didn't you READ the article, because I did.

As always I welcome all responses (try to keep the personal insults to a minimum) and I respond to as many emails as possible.

Dialogue is always healthy.

But more importantly, I hope you took as much time to read my latest article on the Presidential election of 2004 and what our people need to do...and hopefully you're equally as inspired to debate that as well. If not, be sure to check yourselves in terms of priorities.

Morris
dark.gable@sbcglobal.net

Morris: I appreciate you coming back to continue the discussion. But I wish you'd offer some specific evidence and examples to back up all these broad, sweeping generalizations.

Especially since the few times you have tried to offer specifics you didn't seem to have your facts straight, as I illustrated in my previous reply. I hope you will take a minute to respond to the specific points I raised there.

Like this, for example:

"And James Brown samples are still very prevalent in Hip Hop...just because you're not aware of them doesn't mean they're not being used. You maybe need to check the album credits a bit more often."

Can you back this up with specific examples of recent hits that were based on James Brown samples?

Belve is right hip hop is what ever it wants to be whether it is samples, live intruments or keyboards hell it dosent even have to be rapping ie. (Lauren Hill, Outkast).James Brown loops?, some producers might take a snare or a drum loops if they want that retro feel.Sex, for real what ever happened to your band? Do you still play.

Jay.. I was more interested about Mr O'Kelly's statement that no rapper should even considered a musician. That is the kind of sweeping statements that almost always makes me want to jump up and smack someone.

For anyone and most importantly making the statement that someone in a profession to be downgraded because of their own likes and dislikes in regards to a medium that is so subjective in its very nature.

Yes his definition of musician is extremely narrow, and his reasoning for that narrow definition doesn't stand up under its own weight.

Like I said already, his whole rationale relies on a premise that hasn't been true in almost ten years, that the overwhelming majority of hip-hop production uses sampled loops. Look at the top ten "rap tracks" on Billboard this week and I suspect you'll find the opposite, even with Just and Kanye bringing sample-based beats back into vogue somewhat (and again, I certainly don't agree with his assessment of loop-based music's merit, but I'm setting that aside for now).

He might try to say the samples are still there, but not in such obvious ways, so we just aren't recognizing them. But assuming that's true, and they are being recontextualized to such an extent that we can't recognize they are samples, then that negates any suggestion that there's no creativity or originality involved.

You guys just don't get it. Originality and creativity are not THE issues here. We can be creative with finger paints, but in and of itself that doesn't make you a "painter".

I NEVER SAID NO RAPPER SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A MUSICIAN. OBVIOUSLY YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE. I CAN'T HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT AN ARTICLE YOU DIDN'T TAKE TIME TO READ.

I acknowledged a few 'rappers' who I considered musicians in the piece as an example. No need to restate it, just read the article.

We'll have to agree to disagree about my definition of being a musician being narrow. But in truth, it should be narrow to a certain degree. Not just ANYBODY is a musician. Not just ANYBODY is a mathematician. No disclipine or study, not title bestowed. Very simple.

I tend to think that a 'musician' can exist if need be in other musical mediums and understands theory beyond just their segment.

It's very simple, don't overcomplicate it. How could anyone call themselves a 'musician' if they've NEVER studied music on any level, nor played an instrument. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.

Studying rap for 20 years or even creating rap for 20 years in and of itself doesn't make you a musician. The degree of musicianship you'd need is minimal at best. Doesn't mean you'd be good, but degree of musicianship isn't high. The two essential elements you'd need is somebody else's music and your own rhymes.

This is NOT a debate about the authenticity or value of Hip Hop, it's about the tools used in its creation and the degree in which music is used by its creators.

Once again, you're debating the 'musicianship' of rappers in non-musical terms. You're talking about originality and creativity, but aren't knowledgeable enough from a music foundation sense to take the debate there.

For me it comes down to this. I can debate the finer points of all forms of music because I'm a musician. You guys are only trying to debate the finer points of Hip-Hop and rapping that is my point.

The lack of knowledge about what goes into musicianship...not just what goes into creating Hip-Hop is demonstrative of the fact that the scope of musical expertise is limited at the VERY best.

The rappers who are creating with live instruments aren't at issue here...they are musicians by definition...

The debate here is about the ones who aren't.

Kanye isn't bringing old music back into the mainstream conscience or keeping it alive. He's just sampling. Don't make it more than what it is.

Those who ALREADY know Chaka Khan, already know Chaka Khan. He's not paying homage and at the end saying, "Thanks to Chaka for making all this happen".

That's the difference between covering someone's music and taking someone's music.

You want to debate whether James Brown is still "prevalent" as a sample, but disregard the fact that regardless of the name of the artist sampled, it's the primary tool of rap today...and that is not musicianship.

The "fact" that samples have been rearranged into bits less recognizable doesn't somehow validate a higher degree of musicianship. Creativity...yes, musicianship...no.

None of you have studied music so none of you are going to understand the place I'm coming from.

If you can't read the language or speak the language of the land (music), how can you say you are a true disciple of it?

Here's a clear cut definition: A musician is one who has studied the tenets of music. He/she can read or write music and/or has a degree of proficiency with live instrumentation.

Bobby McFerrin only used his voice as an instrument, but he also read, wrote and arranged music.

Spoken word, regardless of how rhythmic it may be, doesn't mean you're a musician. If you studied music and knew the difference between tone poems and poetry you'd already know this.

You guys are arguing from a point of lack of knowledge about MUSIC as an art. If you can only talk about the history and development of rap and Hip-Hop...who are you to say what a musician is...when already you can't even espouse what it takes to be a musician in ANY other form?

Do you guys collectively know Hip-Hop better than I do? Probably. But that only makes you an expert on Hip-Hop. All of you put together wouldn't be able to discuss the finer points of music theory, history and artistry of the art as a whole, across genres and mediums, so it's hard for you to get on a soap box and say you credibly can say 'what' a musician is, when you have no music foundation in which to form the opinion in the first place.

We all can have an opinion, but I'm far closer to understanding Hip-Hop and it's creation than any of you to understanding jazz, classical, R&B and their creation. The reason is I'm a musician.

Well he made his statement and got us to not only read it but also for the most part intelligently discuss it.
Mo' Power to Mo' O'kelly.. I guess

BTW to David.. I loved the Jazzmatazz series, and I do find that those who do give merit alot quicker to those who show creative flair in their music. So I'm sure that wasn't that great of an insult to him. Always forgot to add that to any of my earlier comments.

And another thing...

Poetry has rhythm and meter. Iambic pentameter and so forth. It's a specific rhythm used to signify when and where words fall. Rhythm is a part of the music equation, but nowhere is it confused that an iambic pentameter poem IS music.

It's rhythmic poetry. I know this because I studied it at length. If you want to debate credentials, I'll put my senior collegiate thesis on the history of music and music theory from one of the top institutions in the country against anyone on this message board. So if you want credentials on this topic, let's hear everyones...and then go from there.

There's a distinct difference between "putting out music" and being a musician...and it's more than just semantics.

Put it in street terms. Just because I play basketball with my church group once a month doesn't make me a "baller". If I shoot baskets from the wrong side of the goal, out of bounds and have no knowledge of the history or the rules of basketball, it doesn't mean I can say I'm a basketball player. Not truthfully at least. It means I'm shooting baskets and no more...yes, it's something that basketball plays DO (shoot baskets)...but I'm still not a basketball player.

Someone who's read law journals for 20 years isn't a lawyer by definition either. There are specific things you should know and be able to demonstrate as a lawyer. Certain curriculum you should have digested too. There are parallels here.

The fact that you can get varying educational degrees (including doctorate level) in music is demonstrative of this fact. It's not just something you do, it's something that you study and master on a deeper level. To call my definition "narrow" yet don't acknowledge Hip-Hop's "narrow" use or knowledge of music principles is hypocritical on unbelievable levels. In short, you guys are BEGGING in terms of rappers showing musical expertise.

Music...it's a discipline, an applied science, a course of study...more than one class of DJ'n at the Berklee school of music.

The absence of legitimate study or applied expertise of these concepts is the absence of musicianship, PERIOD.

Now who of you has anything meaningful to add to the election debate...?

Anyone?

I thought so.

So are you saying that a musician cannot in any way shape form or fashion be a rapper?

Your credentials, while more than enough to prove your qualified to speak on the matter, doesnt a)Prove your statements as the absolute truth and b)Give you the right to say that there are no musicians in rap.

I do however concede that musicians in HipHop are not as prevalent as in maybe jazz, but a true musician can indeed by your own definition should be able to not only survive but possibly reinvigorate HipHop. But with the attitude and stigma that the established musicians like yourself attach to rappers makes it hard for a musician to try her/his hand at rap and still feel as though they are respected amongst their own peers.

As far as the elections, I can honestly say that no matter what I am still gonna write in Jesse Jackson as I have for the last 3 presidential elections. Because I dont trust none of the other choices... not that I totally trust him but hey I'm voicing my opinion.

Whoa Mo,
You're feeling yourself a little too much. And it's a shame because you're not the writer or the thinker you think you are.

I have a few questions and assertions for you:

1) What say you of great jazz and rock "musicians" who couldn't read sheet music? How many times have you read a jazz musician say plainly that musical notations "look like chinese symbols" to them? Aside from being written precisely like that in many a jazz biography, a recent interview with Clyde Stubblefield indicates that he couldn't read music either. Neither could Hendrix or a million others out there who are bona fide "musicians" in your twisted, arbitrary world. Conversely, a lot of people read music fine or have taken theory classes and will never approach musical significance.

2) Your inclusion of "applied expertise" along with "legitimate study" gives your silly thesis a way out of existence. Of course Hendrix applied his expertise as one of the greatest guitarists in history in lieu of, and maybe partially because of, his lack of what you call "legitimate study." And yet your point still depends on two basic assertions: a) a musician is anyone who plays an instrument AND b) a sampler is not an instrument. So when Billy Joe Armstrong, of Green Day, says he "still can't read music" and "only knows three chords but that's all that matters" he stakes claim to your "musicanship" by virtue that his instrument is a guitar, which he by his own admission has not experted. DJ Premier on the other hand, to name an obvious example, IS, by any criteria, an expert sampler. And, by most criteria, he makes music. Ergo... Armstrong is still the "musician" that Primo is not. (I'll forgo the argument that Billy Joe has mastered the craft of pop punk music.)

3) Your lawyer example is troublesome. That which separates one who's spent 20 years "reading law journals" and, we could imagine, otherwise independently studying law from one who is a bona fide lawyer is that there are sanctioning bodies that determine who is and who isn't a lawyer. They are called bar associations. One could have a greater understanding for the workings of the law than another but if the latter has passed the bar and the former hasn't then one is a lawyer, aptitude and understanding be damned. You make a tacit argument that music schools and music theory courses are like bar associations for musicians. That's just plain stupid. Very few of my favorite musicians (nor many of the more respected musicians of the past century, particular in rock) would be members of such a bar.

I was under the impression that a musician is a person that practices music... ide like for someone to explain why pressing keys or plucking strings in a sequence to make a melody is any different from sampling sounds into an mpc and then playing them back using this pads. Your still composing your own piece even if your using sounds from records rather than stock standard sounds that come with your keyboard... your still composing. What people like DJ premier and Pete Rock do with samples displays a lot more musicianship than what producers like Lil jon are doing with completly original compositions. Also ide love for Mr O'kelly to explain his argument that Kanye gave no acknowledgement of the fact that he was using a Chaka Khan sample... (i assume hes obvioulsy not seen the video) And also, how can anyone say that hip hop has been primarily sample based over the last 10 years. The dominating sounds in hip hop (excluding the recent wave of soul inspired beats) since the mid ninties has come from swizz beats, rockwilder, neptunes, dre, Mannie Fresh and now lil jon.... None of these people sample (please dont say Dre cause he very rarely samples nowadays)...And that Tipsy argument is ridiculous, regardless as to whether it was break beat samples, keyboard samples or a live drummer...its still a drum beat.

To DJ Snips...

Very quickly...drum beats is not to be confused with a drummer. Get over it. You can create samples all day and night but if you don't even know what a paradiddle is...you're obviously not a drummer. Or how about this. If you're not PLAYING a drum like instrument showing skills of instrumentation, you're not a drummer. You have to actually DRUM to be a drummer.

Next thing, you'll be telling me that because I can play sax samples on a keyboard that makes me a sax player. No, that makes you a keyboard player at best. Samples do not equate to instrumentation. It's not that damn hard to understand.

Again, "putting out music" doesn't make you a musician. Again, some rappers are musicians, but just because you ARE a rapper, that doesn't make you a musician by default. So for every rapper you can 'name' who in your estimation is a musician, I bet I can find 9 who aren't. 90% on my side means I'm right. 10% on your side means you're wrong.

Reading and writing music is NOT only what is required of a true musician, read my post again.

Someone can not read or write music but have an understanding of melody, harmony and tonality and time signature which Jimi Hendrix did.

And what makes a 'lawyer' is NOT a bar association. A bar association only deems who can PRACTICE LAW in a given state. Get your facts straight. I said there is STUDY, level of curriculum digested...I didn't say anything about being able to practice in the state of New York...

But of course, you've never STUDIED music, so you have no understanding of it as an applied math science, which it is.

All music is math...time signatures, intervals and fraction rate of play and development. All of which is GREEK to someone who never studied.

And again, I expressed the fact that true musicians can exist in other fields of music..as Hendrix and all the other examples of people who couldn't read music could. Again, you guys just don't read.

And I'm going to gladly light all of you up for one basic premise...

THE FACT THAT YOU WANT TO DEBATE TOOTH AND NAIL ABOUT WHETHER RAPPERS ARE MUSICIANS AND HAVE NOTHING TO ADD ON THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IS THE PUREST FORM OF THE MISGUIDED RHETORIC YOU SPEW.

You want to 'chastise' my writing skills and reasoning skills and can't even talk on a topic outside of Hip-Hop.

Therein is the proof of my argument.

The moment you can talk about music in musical terms and not in Hip-Hop terms in explaining your argument, then you might have something.

Because you have no musical expertise yourselves, you still have no basis for your opinion other than "I know Hip-Hop".

Yes, everybody has a right to their own opinion, even when it's ill-conceived, ill-supported, unfounded and ultimately wrong.

I already explained that those people who played live instruments were musicians and you guys line up a bunch of guys who can't read music and ask if I think whether they're musicians?!@

Learn how to read my posts before you respond to them.

And regardless of whether you think I'm a good writer or not, I have five more articles to write this weekend and have written 3 since this one...so once again, your opinion, although you're welcome to have it...is not based in reality.

And no DJ Snips, you're not a MUSICIAN, just because you practice music. Reread my analogies on physicians, mathematicians and theologians.

You're a bit late to the discussion. A lot of your remarks have already been addressed. So don't ask me about Hendrix and every other person who played live instruments yet can't read music. I'VE ALREADY ADDRESSED THEM. WHY CAN'T YOU GUYS READ ALL OF MY POSTS?

But in the ABSENCE of being able to read or write music, in the absence of being able to play live instrumentation, in the absence of the knowledge of music theory...is the absence of musicianship.

If you want to call it 'musicianship', it's poor at best and is not on par with any other realm of music. If ANY of you studied music you'd know this. It's not a value judgment, it's just a fact.

It's not a statement of preference, it's just a fact. You could be the best rapper in the history of mankind and not know jack about music. They aren't mutually exclusive.

You can't be the best jazz artist in all the world and not know anything about music. You may not know how to read music or the notes on a page, but you have to know chord and key structure which can be learned by ear. You may not know the theory, but you know the principles behind it and can apply them. That's the only way you can be a good jazz artist, since you want to use that genre as an arguing point.

The reason I don't debate sociology with Jay Smooth is because I haven't studied sociology...

Get it?

The moment one of you can debate this topic in musical terms not "being real creative" or "being good at obscuring samples" or "real tight with sampled beats" then we can continue this discussion.

This is like Jay Smooth with his almost PhD in sociology having a discussion with the rest of us on who is a sociologist, when NONE of us have ever studied sociology.

You can get a PhD in music. You can get a Masters in music. It's an applied science. There is study, curriculum and expertise involved. The absence of the knowledge of ANY and ALL of this makes you the poorest of musician on any level. It's STUDY doesn't have to be FORMAL, but if you haven't STUDIED and haven't DEMONSTRATED knowledge of it...you definitely can't ultimately claim it.

Lastly...

You don't have to formally study to be a 'musician'...but you are a more COMPLETE musician than those who haven't. You don't have to play a BUNCH of instruments to be a musician, but you're surely more a COMPLETE musician than those who don't play any. And if you don't play ANY instruments, don't read any music, and don't know how to do either, you're far and away a weak example of what musicianship is, because you can do virtually NOTHING of what even the average individual in the field can do. Most rappers fall into that category, no ifs ands or buts. It's irrefutable.

The 10 year old with 2 years of piano and theory is more of a musician than most rappers.

It's not about how many albums you sell or how many people bob their heads to your songs on the subway. Being a musician is not about whether someone deems your music as 'likable'.

It's about your knowledge of the art of music.

Huge difference. Jimi Hendrix may not have READ music, but he composed songs, complete songs with different instrumentation parts. It's funny you'd even go there and bring his name up.

We've had this discussion long enough and I've heard arguments about how someone who arranges drum samples is a "drummer" and how someone who "plays a funky bassline" is somehow a keyboard player...

That's laughable. And it's coming from someone who never played drums and never played keyboards...that's the worst part of it.

You guys don't play the instruments, don't study music, but feel comfortable trying to tell the people who do that you qualify on that level.

Incredible.

That's like me trying to tell you I'm a rapper because or I'm down with Hip-Hop because I wrote two rhymes back in high school. Even I know it's more than that. Bigger than that. Why any of you don't see the correlation is beyond me.

If rappers are musicians by default, then I'm a rapper...because I can put two sentences together and make them rhyme and get a producer to sample some funk legend.

So if they're musicians by default, I'm a rapper by default. You can't undercut musicianship and say I can't then undercut Hip-Hop.

If you acknowledge that there is a level of "expertise" within Hip-Hop, then that's cool. I'm not rebutting that. Just don't say that because there is expertise that you are automatically a musician.

Because I know my 2 rhymes or the 35 I may write tonight still won't make me a rapper.

And by the way...when ONE of you gets published, then you can talk about who is or is not a writer.

Two fingers...in a "V"

Well, once again I certainly appreciate the amount of time you are devoting to this discussion.

I'm puzzled though, by your assumptions that none of us are published writers, have studied music, or have knowledge of other musical genres. You don't appear to have any evidence for this claim other than our failure to share your personal opinions.

If I detailed my background in writing and music you'd be in for a shock or two, and I'm sure that goes for others here as well. But I won't to bother heading down that road because such "credentials" don't matter much to me. If your reasoning is sound, it will be able to stand on its own merit regardless of what's on your resume.

And if you want to know whether we discuss political issues here such as the election, you can read this post, or this post, or this post, this post, or this post, among others. Just because there is a lack of interest in discussing politics with you doesn't mean there's a lack of interest in discussing politics. Not that this even pertains to the discussion either way.

Also, its funny how you keep telling us that just putting out music and getting it sold doesn't make one a good musician, but "just putting out" your writing and getting it published is offered as proof that you are a good writer.

What really puzzles me, though, is how when we ask you to explain your own words, you react as if those words came from outer space:

You want to debate whether James Brown is still "prevalent" as a sample, but disregard the fact that regardless of the name of the artist sampled, it's the primary tool of rap today...and that is not musicianship.

You were the one who said "James Brown samples are still very prevalent in Hip Hop," but now that you realize you were wrong, you want to act like we brought it up. And far from disregarding your second point, I have directly addressed it repeatedly, listing many of today's top hip-hop producers and referencing the latest billboard charts as evidence that sampling is not the primary tool of most commercial rap producers today.

"Once again, you're debating the 'musicianship' of rappers in non-musical terms. You're talking about originality and creativity, but aren't knowledgeable enough from a music foundation sense to take the debate there."

Again, we've been talking about originality and creativity because those were standards you established throughout your original essay:

"If the crux of your ‘music’ requires you to borrow directly (i.e. sample) from music pre-recorded by other musicians, how much of a ‘musician’ are you truly?"

"In the strictest of terms, you’re neither the creator of the melody or the harmony…so where is the musical
contribution? In the old days, they credited that person as “Lyrics By.” The manipulation of samples does not equate to musicianship"

"Sampling is not musicianship and lyrical artistry enhanced with sampling doesn’t equate to musicianship either."

"If ‘biting rhymes’ won’t qualify me as a great rapper, then ‘biting music’ surely doesn’t qualify you as a musician on any level."

"If history takes a different turn and sampling is both eschewed and outlawed, we can easily argue that Hip-Hop as a genre does not survive."

Is that ‘musical’ creativity? Not really. That’s legalized theft. If it were a column they’d call it plagiarism. And if it were a screenplay it would be grounds for an intellectual property theft lawsuit. Yes, sampling is legal...

True musicianship is dead and music today has suffered considerably. Decades from now, radio will still extol the virtues of Stevie, Donny, Prince, Michael and other music legends whose successors have gladly imitated out of flattery, or sampled out of lack of creativity. True musical genius is never duplicated. You can sample it, loop it and even give it a new title, but it’s never duplicated.

It's understandable if you want to retreat from that position, but you're not gonna get away with pretending it was us who took it there. As seen above, the bulk of your EURweb piece relied on this (now debunked) premise that most rappers cannot be musicians because they lack the ability to create anything original, and rely strictly on samples of other people's music.

But in your latest salvos here you've abandoned that position, and backpedaled to a standard based on amount of formal study and training, knowledge of theory, etc. which were only mentioned as brief asides in your original piece. So although you probably won't admit it, I'm glad to see our discussion has helped your understanding to evolve.

Unlike the sampling thing, a judgement based on one's depth and diversity of knowledge/training/study at least has some connection with reality, since it is true that most hip-hop artists don't have a background of formalized musical education, extensive knowledge of chordal theory, and so on. But I'm going to take your advice and agree to disagree on that one, since my main issue was with the sample-based theory in your original EURweb piece, which even you seem to agree is now discredited.

And incidentally, hip-hop rhymes are rarely if ever in iambic pentameter, because a pentameter is made up of 5 "feet," which would not usually work well over a 4/4 time signature. The standard hip-hop line has 7 feet, otherwise known as heptameter, although most hip-hop lyrics are too varied in their structure and too subtly nuanced rhythmically to be measured precisely by traditional poetry's metric system.

(btw, although the tone has been fairly snarky on both ends, I really have enjoyed the discussion and I'm not being sarcastic about appreciating the time you've spent.)

"Yes, everybody has a right to their own opinion, even when it's ill-conceived, ill-supported, unfounded and ultimately wrong"

well said morris, thats an accurate judgment of some of YOUR opinions.....

has anyone thought of mentioning The Roots... no one can deny that they're musicians AND hip-hop....

"We all can have an opinion, but I'm far closer to understanding Hip-Hop and it's creation than any of you to understanding jazz, classical, R&B and their creation. The reason is I'm a musician"

who the fuck does this morris guy think he is?!?!

does he think he knows the readers of this site???

Im not going to go into long post cause it looks like Jay beat me to it but for the record Morris (as most of your last post seemed directed at me) I HAVE been to college to study music and i also play Keys AND guitar....AND can read music. Firstly, your 90-10% argument doesnt stand up when 90% of hip hop thats been released this decade does not include samples (especially ones from James Brown...but i think weve covered that) Secondly you said a musician would have to understand chord changes and melodies etc, which most sample based producers do have a knowledge of as the art of sampling has moved on from "James Brown loops" and is more about layering several short pieces of music together, it would be impossible for a producer to do this without a ear for these things.... And lastly, If youve done nothing else with your posts youve at least made it quite clear as to how you see the hip hop audience.... "Uneducated kids with no knowledge of "real" music who ONLY listen to hip hop while riding the subway bobbing there heads".

P.S. You said i have a right to my opinion even if its wrong... I would have assumed that someone with your experience as a writer would understand the difference between fact and opinion. There is no such thing as a WRONG opinion... cause it is exactly that, an opinion, not fact.

Well said by DJ Snips.

wow... I guess i ended the discussion. lol.

To MO O.K......A.K.A RETARTED NEAR SIGHTED FUCKING IDIOT WITH NO IDEA!!!!!!

CLASS IS DEFINATELY BELOW ME AT THIS POINT....................

Your ignorance is actually bordering on Autism....

How many people havee played b flat before???????SO WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO USE IT, YOU ARE STEALING B FLAT FROM THE FIRST EVER TO USE IT...
MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A mixer is just as much an instrument off music as is a piano, as(IN BASIC TERMS) B has been carefully programmed in..........NO ONE FAULTS ANYBODY FOR USING THESE NOTES IN WHATEVER ORDER THEY WANT...
JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS SAMPLED A MIX OF B E major A flat and C,doesn't mean these notes did not pre-exist without the sample...

IF THE "LIGHTS WENT OUT" I'm sure alot of the music YOU WANT TO HEAR WILL COME BACK!!!!!!this does not mean that the producers with musical background(who you have chosen to ignore, of course) won't be making it...DOUCHEFUCKINGBAGOFCRRAP......
can you open your mind(maybe empty of the billion studies yyou have studied "at length" and try to understand the point that traditional insstruments are not the ONLY instruments........
I love all the points people have tried to make you understand about jazz using melodiees from olderr music.......MEANING IF JAZZ MUSCIANS COULD HAVE SAMPLED THE MELODIESS THEY ARRANGED TOGETHER RATHER THAN PLAY THEM FROM MEMORY they would have consideredd this method grounbreaking....

If you can manipulate souund prevviouslyy used but largely unheard on its own, YOU AREE A MUSICIAN working within thee never eendding boundries of music......

YOURR POINTS AREE BASELESS AND CONFINED TO YOUR POINT OFF VIEW>>
why am i writinng thiss anywayss.....i've seen to many convincing and flawless statementss against your (should i say predjudice or evvil?) views........I mean evil because your attacking something for the purposse of making yourself look smarterr.....YOU ARE OBVIOUSLZYY EDUCATED>SHUTT THEE FUCK UP ABOUT THAT and open yyour mind to the possibility that YOU ARE WRONG>>
WRRONG I SAY!!!!!!!!!!
I dont know you, this is true......but you could be Nobel back from the dead and i would still HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THESE BITTER INSULTS ARE NOT BENEATH ME WHEN IT COMES TO YOU MO>>>>>>>>

My keyboard is fucked...

and by the way..

if you actually are middle aged morris, im sorry your "genius inspired" life has passed you by, and im sure you considered yourself a dancer....

If you are a writer, and not just someone who reads forums....than write about something that MATTERS!!!!!!not a spiteful view point that went stale ten years ago.........

Why don't you find a sample for a dope hip-hop beat that moves people....post the beat here and prove us all wrong...

CUZ I SURE AS FUCK PLAY THE PIANO.....AND WRITE MELODIES FOR IT.....BUT NOT MELODIES THAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR, it seems like this is where your problem lies MO........

what do you have to offer to music as it applies to the rest of the world???

Internetvideothek Videothek Online-Videothek Netleih

top online casinos |
online casino directory |
online poker rooms |
online sports betting
online gambling and casino forum

casinos found online
best new casinos
casinos online best
online casinos
online casino
play online casino
new best casino online
casinos online best
online gambling
gambling online today

online gambling |
online casino
list online casinos |
best casinos online |
list online casinos |
web online casinos |
tops online casinos |
rank online casinos |
post online casinos |
online casinos |
online gambling |
online casino |
internet casinos

and

casinos online from the bottom and
online casinos list top the top of the
online casinos bingo in a way determined by
online casinos poker gambling jackpot
del online casino slots and all of these casino games
online gambling fun to the point where all of this is
online casinos fans uncalled for and dont play but gamble
online casinos inc. and this is where
online casinos info so you have to explain this
casinos online but this problem will be resolved
online casino society and you will get the casino bonus
online casino publishing as we agreed on
online casinos and to what extend the new jackpot
online casinos folk thanks for that man
online casinos deluxe replicating and looking for
gambling online casinos some kind of new way
online casino graphics I know I have never heard of
online casinos process
casino online
wood online casinos
online casino solutions
online casino stars
casinos online
casino group online
online casinos
online casino matrix
life of online casinos
online casino members

casinos online
gambling online casinos
casinos online gambling
gamble at the online casinos
online gambling
the casinos online gambling
best online casino gambling
online casinos net
online casinos
best online casinos
computer casinos online
top online casino gambling
casinos, online casinos
play online casinos gambling
gamble at the online casinos
online casinos,
online gambling,
casino gambling,
play casino online,
online casinos games,
casino games online,
online casino craps,
online casinos blackjack,
online casino poker,
online casinos slots,
online casino gambling,

online casino
craps, online casinos
poker, online casino
blackjack, online
casino slots, canadian online casinos, online

casinos
blackjack, casinos
gambling online,
casinos slots online,
casinos online craps,
free casino online,
new casino online,
free online casino games,
top online casino directory,
play casino online,
gambling online casino,
more online casino games,
casino blackjack online,
gambling casino online,
poker casinos online,
list of online casinos,
free casinos online,
new online casino,

free casino online,
play online casino,
online casino games,
new gambling online,
new casino games,
online new casinos,
online free casino,
new online casino,
online free casinos,
online casinos online,
top gambling casinos,
new casino gambling games,
best online casinos,
best casino online,
gambling online casino,
gambling online casinos,
top casinos online
gambling, free casino
online gambling,
online casinos,
new online casinos,
online casino portal, play free casino
online, porn online casinos,
online casinos,
new online casinos,
best online casino,

find online casinos,
list of casinos online,
internet casino,
net casinos,
internet casinos,
most online casinos,
casino on the net,
internet gambling casino,
net casinos,
online casinos on the net,
gambling online,
free online casinos net,
new casinos online,
best casino online,
top online casino,
top online
casinos, casinos online top,
casinos new online,
best online casino net,
way to online casinos,
poker casinos online,
blackjack casinos
online, video poker
online casinos,
online casinos, online
casino
a 1 casinos online
online casinos 000
online casino games and

Omg thats right! Please come see me and my friends! ;)

New links Page

http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/all-discount-cigarette.com.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/American-Spirit-Cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/bronco-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/capri-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/capri-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cheap-cigarette-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cheap-marlboro-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigar-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-ads.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-ads.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-advertisement.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-brand.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-card.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-company.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-filter.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-girl-costume.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-girl.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-ingredient.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-machine.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-price.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-rolling-machine.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-sale.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-sales.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-smoke.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-tax.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/discount-cigarette-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/discount-cigarette-store-com.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/discount-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Dunhill-Cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Dunhill-Cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/free-cigarette-coupon.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/furniture-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/gt-one-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/indian-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/kool-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/lucky-strike-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/mail-order-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigarette-catalog.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigarette-miles.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/native-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Pall-Mall-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Pall-Mall-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/quest-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/salem-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/sonoma-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/virginia-slims-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/virginia-slims-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/vwholesale-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/basketball-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/betting-nba-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/betting-online
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/college-football-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/nfl-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-baseball-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-betting-sport-book.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-betting-uk.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-horse-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-sports-betting
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-sports-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/soccer-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/sport-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/basketball-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/betting-nba-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/college-football-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/nfl-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-baseball-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-betting-sport-book.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-betting-uk.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-horse-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-sports-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-sports-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/soccer-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/sport-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-free.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-game.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-internet.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-motif.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-play.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-rule.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/online-backgammon.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-free.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-game.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-internet.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-motif.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-play.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-rule.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/online-backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-free.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-game.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-internet.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-motif.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-play.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-rule.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/online-backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-free.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-game.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-internet.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-motif.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-play.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-rule.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/online-backgammon.html

cigarettes@hotmail.com

New links Page

http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/all-discount-cigarette.com.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/American-Spirit-Cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/bronco-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/capri-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/capri-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cheap-cigarette-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cheap-marlboro-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigar-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-ads.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-ads.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-advertisement.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-brand.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-card.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-company.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-filter.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-girl-costume.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-girl.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-ingredient.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-machine.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-price.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-rolling-machine.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-sale.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-sales.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-smoke.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/cigarette-tax.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/discount-cigarette-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/discount-cigarette-store-com.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/discount-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Dunhill-Cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Dunhill-Cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/free-cigarette-coupon.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/furniture-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/gt-one-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/indian-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/kool-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/lucky-strike-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/mail-order-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigarette-catalog.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigarette-miles.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/marlboro-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/native-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Pall-Mall-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/Pall-Mall-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/quest-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/salem-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/sonoma-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/virginia-slims-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/virginia-slims-cigs.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/cigarette_d/vwholesale-cigarette.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/basketball-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/betting-nba-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/betting-online
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/college-football-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/nfl-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-baseball-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-betting-sport-book.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-betting-uk.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-horse-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-sports-betting
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/online-sports-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/soccer-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sport/sport-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/basketball-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/betting-nba-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/college-football-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/nfl-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-baseball-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-betting-sport-book.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-betting-uk.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-horse-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-sports-betting.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/online-sports-betting-site.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/soccer-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/sportbook/sport-betting-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-free.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-game.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-internet.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-motif.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-online.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-play.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/backgammon-rule.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon/online-backgammon.htm
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-free.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-game.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-internet.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-motif.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-play.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/backgammon-rule.html
http://www.brandname-yz.com/backgammon-free/online-backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-free.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-game.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-internet.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-motif.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-play.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/backgammon-rule.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-game/online-backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-free.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-game.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-internet.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-motif.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-online.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-play.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/backgammon-rule.html
http://www.brandname-yz-casino.com/backgammon-play/online-backgammon.html

cigarettes@hotmail.com

Hi there, everything what have you dreamed up is available here, carry on in clicking on these marvellous sites:
poker online , online poker , online poker room , online poker rooms , poker room , poker rooms , texas hold em poker , texas holdem poker , texas hold em , hold em , hold em poker , texas holdem , holdem poker , holdem , free poker , poker games , free online poker , party poker , free poker games , online poker games , phentermine , phentermine online , cheap phentermine , buy phentermine , adipex , diet pills , meridia , weight loss , weight loss pills , quick weight loss , fast weight loss , didrex , viagra , viagra online , buy viagra , generic viagra , cheap viagra , buy viagra online , order viagra , phentermine cheap , cheapest phentermine , discount phentermine , order phentermine , phentermine on line , cheap phentermine online , bontril , xenical , buy xenical , prescription drugs , prescriptions , online prescriptions , prescription , prescriptions online , prescription medications , discount prescriptions , prescription drugs online , cheap prescriptions , prescription medication , pharmacy , online pharmacy , online pharmacies , pharmacies , medications , medication , depression medication , pain medications , discount prescription drugs , online prescription drugs , cheap prescription drug