Yeah, Paul Hamm missed out on a once in life time opportunity to distinguish himself as a true sportsman and his country as the embodiment of honour and integrity!

It has been well established that the Korean gymnast would have lost anyway, had his parallel bars routine been completely and correctly reevaluated. He had one too many holds, which is a two-tenths deduction not reflected in any of the judges' scores. So add one tenth for difficulty and take away two tenths for too many holds and Paul Hamm still wins.

Had Paul Hamm given his medal away only to learn that he really did deserve it, he would be the laughing stock of the nation. Furthermore, even if the Korean gymnast actually deserved the gold medal, handing over the gold after the competition was over is a bad president. Would we then be obliged to comb through every gymnastic routine looking for judging errors? As far as I'm concerned, in the absence of corruption, once a medal is awarded, it's final.

And when you try to tie this Paul Hamm attitude to George W. Bush--that's really sick. Paul Hamm spent his whole life becoming a gymnast--not a hero. He should keep his gold medal for his gymnastic talent. He should not give it away to be a "hero."

"a bad president" == George W. Bush

;-)

Nice to put all of the blame on Paul's shoulders.
Where is the accountability from the Korean team, including Tae-Young, for making sure that the judges had the accurate start value?
I guess it is easier to pass the buck and blame Paul then to say "you know what, we screwed up because we weren't paying attention. In addion, the rules are clear regaring making a protest, and we didn't follow the rules...shame on us"

Would you seriously expect the winner of a super bowl to hand over the title and trophy because after the game a team realized there was a bad call in the third quarter? Of course not.

Based on the rules in place, based on the incompetence of the entire Korean coaching staff and gymnasts, the gold was correctly awarded to Paul.

Craig: The error that cost Tae-Young a tenth of a point and the one you describe here are apples and oranges.. but regardless, I never said Tae-Young would have won if it was called correctly.. In that case each of them would have been responding to different odds and different pressures, and may have reacted differently, so the truth is we'll never know the answer to that question. And at this point it's really not the question that matters anyway.

Had Paul Hamm given his medal away only to learn that he really did deserve it, he would be the laughing stock of the nation.

Are you kidding me? That would have only raised his stock even higher! I can understand hy it was hard for Paul Hamm to see this from his position, but giving that medal back was a no-brainer.

Have you ever competed in sports? I have, in track - high school and college. When the officials make a call, that's it - there are no "do overs". In football, they allow for instant replay - but personally, I dislike that as well. Mistake or not, the event ended with Hamm on top. The IOC should leave well enough alone - they are making the situation worse. They should emulate baseball unpires who rarely (if ever) discuss calls, even when those calls were demonstrably wrong. The officials are part of sports, for good and ill.

And those of you who are attempting to apply some kind of political meaning to this - you're clueless idiots. Go find a cluestick and beat yourselves with it.

Pat:

1. Yeah you're right, I really should have started off by making it clear that Paul Hamm doesn't deserve all of the blame for what happened... oh wait, I did do that.

2. The Superbowl and the Olympics are not at all comparable, the Olympics have a completely diffferent history and purpose, and events that take place there have vastly different meanings.

James: I agree the IOC and the IGF flubbed this, and never should have put Hamm in this position. But once he was there, I just wish he'd made a difference choice.

Where can I purchase one of these cluesticks you speak of?

Hmm, I reread the post and I don't see where you think others are to blame..I see "Olympic officials should just give another gold" (even though the Korean didn't win)..I see "tough spot for Paul, but he isn't a champion because he didn't give up his gold"(which he won by following the rules)...I see "Paul was blinded by his pride"..but no mention that the Korean team is to blame, that the judges are to blame

I think that rules are in place for a reason. (could be because my Dad was a cop) Those rules, barring some type of mischief, should be followed. If the Koreans choose (key word) not to follow the rules and don't pay attention to scores (part of their job), and choose not to follow the rules regarding a protest, then they are 100% responsible.

re;SB and olympics, I don't know that history and purpose have anything to do with it. Both are based on playing games and following rules (I wish I could play games to the level all of these athletes can play).

With that said, I am sure that you and I will continue to disagree, but isn't that what makes the world a great place to be!

-pat

apples in oranges

In what way? They are both measured completely objectively. In fact, the difference between 3 holds and 4 holds is much easier to understand than however they determine what makes a 9.9 start value and a 10.0 start value.

Any way you apply the rules fairly, Hamm wins. Either you review both mistakes, or you don't.

Why don't we just give everyone a gold medal?!? After all, in the Liberal America, we shouldn't reward performance, that would make people feel bad. Let's just reward everyone for showing up.

(I wouldn't normally use the phrase Liberal America this way, but the idea that this has anything to do with George Bush is pretty funny.)

Actually, judging the "holds" is supposedly more subjective than the criteria for assigning a start value.

i totally agree with you. i think that paul hamm is being selfish.

Sorry to break it to all of you, but unfortunately, George W. Bush is in fact the one responsible in this incident.

As a fellow Midwesterner, I believe Paul Hamm deserves his medal. For those of you with a "political axe to grin," (i.e. liberal slant) you need a nice kick in ass. Do you really think Paul would have gotten anything in return by handing over the medal to the Korean? No. Why? Liberals can't stand seeing a white guy on top. Racist bastards

As a Midwesterner, I think being a Midwesterner has nothing to do with this. My gosh, let's just go around and reiterate stereotypes of stupidity in every possible forum.

Jay's got a point... Regardless of your political leaning, you can't deny that many other nations have grown to view the United States as a country that tends to dominate and perhaps even bully others. George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and a whole host of US leaders have made decisions at times that bolster a hegemonic view of the United States throughout the world.

The Olympics is a uniquely political sports event. Look back at your history books, nearly every Olympic game has had some political dimension. Each athlete represents a country and, therefor, must place their country before their personal aims.

U.S. Relations with South Korea have been increasingly stressed (remember the protests throughout Seoul last year due to the deaths of two schoolgirls run over by American military vehicles)? It's easy to see why young South Koreans may view Paul Hamm as yet another example of American hubris. Can the U.S. afford to continue to spark thoughts of arrogance and discern among young South Koreans? Remember, they share a peninsula with one of the remaining "Axis of Evil" nations.

Straight from the Olympic's website (http://www.athens2004.com/en/Values):

"In the Olympic Games, what matters most is to share the common vision of promoting peace and friendship among all the people of the world, through the noble competition in sport."

Perhaps Paul would best exemplify the Olympic goal of peace and nobility by, at least, sharing his medal.

"If he had stepped up and given Tae-Young his gold, he would have gone down as one of the great heroes of olympic history, held up to generations of children as an icon of virtue and sportsmanship. People would would have started walking around with WWPHD bracelets. He'd be exalted for the rest of his life as the embodiment of our noble American values. And he'd be paid up the wazoo."

I think you could more safely argue that none of this would have happened.

It's ludicrous to ask Paul Hamm to give up his gold.

Andy:

Why don't you express your concerns to all those people flocking to get in this country? It seems to me their dislike for our POLICIES stops when they can't feed their families in their country of origin. In my opinion, I think part of their dislike lies in jealousy and envy. Also, not every country follows the same rules. China has Communism, we have Democracy. The hard line Iranian leadership believes in holding fast to Islam as part of their governing norm. (Where's the ACLU when you need them?HAHA) We believe in the seperation of church and state. My point is there are always going to be cultural differences. Countries are going to disagree.
Besides, why should we bow down to every country that has a grief? Are we always wrong? One incident in South Korea does not make a country of 280 million people bad. If the South Korean youth can't realize this then I feel sorry for them. What about the things that our country has done right? Was it right for us interfer in the Balkans? Should we have just let the Nazi regime rule the world?
My apologies for the previous post. I agree, it was over-the-top. (Though, there are some truths in it.)You're right, though, the Olympics "should be about promoting peace and friendship among all the people of the world." So why did we let politics interfer with them to begin with?

What?!? Sportsmanship? Bush and stubborn pride? Bad Judging? It's fucking gymnastics! Nobody cares about that shit maybe except for Katie Couric.

JSmooth is right--if Hamm had given up the gold the networks would have jumped all over it and pumped the guy up to Legend status.

On the other hand, JSmooth, you imply that the benefit of "doing the right thing" is fame and fortune. If you argue Hamm should have given up the Gold, he should have done it for the intrinsic value of doing so, not for the ancillary benefits that would have come with such an act.

That, in my view, is the biggest problem with this whole controversy--Hamm was in it for the gold, not for the money. And since he wanted to keep the gold, he got roasted in the media for doing so.

Damn, Jay Smooth. As you mentioned on a comment to one of my Paul Hamm posts, we are on the same page. In fact, we're so on the same page that you probably think I plagiarized you. But then, I think you plagiarized me.

Dope site, by the way.

Wow, just an awful article. You jump from one idea to another with no connection. And then you try and turn the event into something similar to america today. Beyond a stretch.

Not surprising you writing on the web and not a real publication.

Pitiful.

For those of you who think that Hamm should give up his gold:
#1 Are you American? If yes, stop complaining.
#2 Would you give up an Olympic gold medal if you believed that you rightfully deserved it? I highly doubt it.
3.It is true that they could add the tenth to the Korean's score and he would have won the gold medal,but then take away the two tenths for having four holds, and as Paul Hamm said himself, the Korean guy would have gotten fourth.
Basically- rules are rules for a reason.The Koreans should have appealed during the appropriate time and because they did not do that, well, as we say in America, for those that support fellow Americans, shit happens.
We have not lost sight of "doing the right thing". A Korean is trying to take away a gold medal rightfully awarded, and we are the ones not doing the right thing? For all of you that think he is selfish, well I'm sure you have faults as well so please have a nice day somewhere else. I hear Korea is nice this time of year.
PS- If you think he missed out on a once in a life time opportunity to distinguish himself, just remember- many of us will never get an opportunity such as his anyway, so how can you judge?

I feel bad for Paul Hamm. He comes into the Olympics as World All-Around Champion, leads his team to a silver medal, and makes one of the greatest comebacks I've ever seen in gymnastics, but yet that isn't what anyone remembers. And it is what anyone is going to remember. He DID win the gold, was given the gold, and there is nothing for the Koreans to be complaining about. If anything, they should shut their mouths, and Tae-Young should run as fast as possible in the other direction with his bronze medal. After the video review, it has been discovered that he not only did not win the gold medal, but he didn't even win the bronze. Where's his sportsmanship? Shouldn't he give back his medal? No, apparently not. But Paul Hamm should give back the gold medal he rightfully earned. Yeah, that's fair. I just hope people will eventually forget about this controversy and maybe Paul Hamm will win another gold at the next Olympics. It won't matter. He's selfish and unsportmanlike, and didn't give back a medal he knew he had won. What was he thinking?

I think that this is totally wrong...I think Paul Hamm handled himself good...and by watching the videos it has been proven that there were more mistakes that would have cost yang-tai the gold. I think if anything Paul Hamm showed his true love for the sport and made America very proud with his performance. I also believe that if the coaches were really worried about it they would have noticed the mistake way before the competition had ended. So I say way to go Paul...I love ya!!!

Hamm is a loser. Anyone who fell into the judges tables like that is no gold medalist.

Judging holds isn't a subjective criteria. If the gymnast in question holds his position for two seconds or more, that's a hold. It doesn't matter if it was intentional or an accident on the gymnast's part. It doesn't matter if the judges like the hold or not. It's a hold, and the rules for that routine say only three are allowed. Yang Jae-Young did four. There is absolutely nothing subjective to consider about the scoring in that circumstance. .20 points should have been deducted but weren't. That would have washed out the .10 that should have been awarded but were not.

Regardless of what we think about the situation... about whether or not Hamm should have won after falling... about whether or not the judging was in error or correct... the bottom line is that the rules were followed. Everything that was done was done according to a set of rules that everyone, INCLUDING the Koreans, agreed to abide by.

Even Yang Jae-Young knows it. When asked about the situation at the medalists' news conference, he had this to say:

"What's done is done. I got this result because of my own mistake, so I should not complain. I must accept the outcome."

That the Koreans are now not doing so, that the FIG is backpedaling even in the face of the IOC standing firm that the final standings are the correct ones, is irrelevant. The rules were followed and Paul Hamm won. I see no reason why he should feel the need to give up his medal, or even be gracious about being hounded about the fact he won it in the first place.

I also think we should bear in mind what Paul Hamm is being asked to do, exactly. He's not being asked to accept a silver medal. No one has ever said he would be given the silver medal instead of the gold should he give his gold medal to Yang Jae-Young. He's being asked to give up his medal entirely and simply go without one, so the bronze medalist in the event can have a gold medal. The silver medalist in the event would still be allowed to keep his medal, despite the fact that he scored lower than Paul Hamm (with no one contesting that fact), who would be left medal-less.

In the end, the only way Yang Jae-Young could be certified the winner of this event is if several of the rules laid down by the IOC and the FIG were broken for him, and if in doing so the FIG chose to only pay attention to the errors made that would help Yang, and ignore the ones that would hurt his case.

And in any case, the start value of exercises are posted BEFORE the exercise takes place. The Koreans had time before the event even happened to make sure the score was correct, and should have been very well aware that the start value was incorrectly assigned, and yet they chose to do nothing about it before their gymnast competed. That they looked at an incorrect start score and ignored it until afterward suggests they were doing nothing more than hedging their bets in an underhanded way to give their gymnast any advantage they could, even an unethical one.

All three medalists, including Paul Hamm should have given up their medals. The FIG and IOC should have sorted this out and then redistributed the medals. Unfortunately, the current situation is making the athletes look bad. Paul Hamm is the best male gymnast this country has ever seen. Instead of people praising him, they are making negative comments. If you all are really interested in the big picture, you would admire and respect the talet that Paul Hamm has displayed. It's not his fault that the judging in the olympics let everyone down. I'd like to see a football player give up their SuperBowl ring if two days later a "bad call" is discovered on instant replay. It just wouldn't make sense. Paul's situation is no different than that. (The Koreans waited 2 days to lodge a protest.)

Paul, if you are reading this. I was a gymnast in high school and college. I am amazed by your talent, and support any decision that you make. You are the real deal, the world's best gymnast!

Instant replay isn't the only analogy applicable here.

Instant replay is analogous to Yang's extra "hold". You're not going to change the football game outcome Monday morning because of the replay reviews.

Let's talk a 5th down. Some college (Cornell?) won a big game that came down to the wire. Realizing that they were given 5 downs in the last seconds before their victory, they (gladly and honorably) relinquished the ref-assisted "win" over to the other team, after the fact.

Yang's erred start value was a 5th down and just.... not right.

That's why Hamm should have relinquished the gold to Yang.

ACtually you are incorrect when it comes to the deduction that should have been taken for the extra hold. In gymnastics, there are certain required elements and others such as hold where only a certain can be done. If the gymnast does not complete the manditory element or goes over the maximum amount of other elements the deductions are manditory not subjective.

Okay, first off, instant replay is expressly against the rules of the FIG. No one should ever have reviewed Yang's performance on video to determine a) if the start value was wrong and b) if the extra hold was there because the rules of the contest require judging to be based on human observation of the event at the time.

Certainly mistakes happen, but as we can clearly see there's a whole can of worms that's unfairly opened the instant you scrap the idea of the human judging of the event at the time in favor of scrutinizing and agonizing the results through video review in this particular sport.

Second, there is NO correlation whatsoever between Yang's erroneous start score and Cornell being given a 5th down. There's a whole slew of things that hinge on that many downs being called in the course of play, not the least of which is that control of the ball changes hands, giving the other team an opportunity to move the ball and score, as well as taking it away from the team that originally had the ball.

Yang's erroneous start score had no such reverberating impact on the competition. Changing the start value would not take anything away from Paul Hamm's opportunity to score what he did, nor would it afford Yang an increased opportunity to score additional points. It would simply add .10 to his overall score, and that's it. There is NO circumstance under which it could do anything different to his score. Period.

If you want a good analogy to football, then Yang's score being altered would be about the same as Notre Dame being credited five points for a touchdown instead of the required six during their game with Cornell. The problem is, Notre Dame lost this particular game by TWO, so it doesn't matter whether or not their touchdown was only given five points, because even if you changed it, the fact would remain that they still LOST THE GAME.

Paul Hamm's complaint is, and I think it's a very valid one, that if you follow the rules set down for the competition, he won. There isn't any ambiguity about it. The Koreans are trying to cheat in order to win this thing, because there is NO WAY they can do so without breaking the rules. Even the FIG, who asked Paul to give up his gold medal, says that not only didn't Paul break any rules, but that according to the rules of the competition, he won the competition and the standings cannot be altered. The International Olympic Committee agrees in whole with that assessment, and they refuse even more soundly to change the results, because unlike the FIG, they refuse to even acknowledge the idea that Yang could have won the competition. Doing so in the manner the Koreans are requesting is expressly forbidden by the rules of the game.

Now then, considering that the FIG isn't a United States organization, and has as little loyalty to the U.S. as it does to Korea, and considering that the IOC is in the same boat, I would hazard a guess their decisions aren't based on some sort of prejudice in favor of Paul or against Yang in this instance... and indeed you only need to go as far as the rule book to see what they're basing their decision on.

If this were a football game that was being reviewed, the only way Yang could win this is if a conversation like the following one took place:

"Well, we told the wrong team they won. We should take the trophy away from Cornell and give it to Notre Dame."

"Why do you say that?"

"Well, we scored one of Notre Dame's touchdowns wrong. They should get an extra point."

"Yeah, but didn't they lose the game by more than one point?"

"Ummm... that doesn't matter. We'll just pretend they got an extra field goal they didn't get or something."

"But what about the fact that Cornell actually scored more points? Someone's going to notice that, aren't they?"

"That's easy. We'll just pretend they weren't even at the championship game."

And no, that's not an overly skewed analysis of what would have to happen to award Yang the gold medal. It's the ONLY way it could happen. When you stack up the points Paul Hamm earned against the points Yang earned ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE GAME, Paul Hamm got more points. Even if you break the rules concerning video review and the filing of protests (which the Koreans want the IOC and FIG to do), and re-count the points Paul Hamm and Yang actually earned, Paul Hamm still GOT MORE POINTS.

That's why Paul should get to keep his gold medal. Because when you cut through all the protests and the cries of "Foul!", Yang's routine, even corrected for that .10 that was taken off, just wasn't as good as Paul Hamm's routine was. He didn't earn a score as high as Paul Hamm, and he never would have.

Way to go Andrew B!!! I could not agree with you more!!!!!

I will not be biased on this because I'm a S. Korean. I was born and raised there until I came to the U.S. couple years ago. As I was watching the gymnasts compete for the all-around gold, I was torn. I wanted the best gymnast in the world, Paul Hamm, to win. But I also wanted my countryman to do well. People argue that Paul does not deserve the gold medal because he fell badly on the vault. But that's why there are more than one apparatus. Out of all 28 gymnasts competing for the individual, paul scored the highest on 3 of 6 apparatus. On one other, he scored higher than the other two gymnasts who medaled (the koreans). It was even more impressive to see Paul do so well after the fall, it showed he really has the desire and determination to win, like a champion should.
People also argue that Paul Hamm does not deserve the gold medal because of the scoring error by the judges. I've watched gymnastics for many years, it happens all the time. Sometimes the judging can help or hurt you. In Yong's case, it did just that. Everyone mentions the obvious, the judges made a mistake that hurt the Korean. But they also helped him by not deducting points. It was dissapointing to see S.Korea argue about this after the medals were given out, not only because it was against the rules, but it seems ridiculous to argue only about what hurt the Korean gymnast, which is not fair. What about the error that helped Yong? I believe it worked out better that they did make this error on the start value. If they did have the right start, the Korean gymnast would have been unfairly given a higher score than he deserved. As for Paul's sportsmanship, what else can Paul do but defend himself and his gold medal? I don't think it's showing poor sportsmanship to say, hey, I played by the rules and I won the gold medal, I did nothing wrong. Why should he have to support the S.Korean gymnast, when they are the ones who couldn't help themselves in the first place? I've read many articles making this a political issue, which is very wrong. Paul's not running for presidency, he's just an athlete, who did his best to win a gold medal, fairly. Other than his own performance, Paul had no control over anything else.

Maybe we should let our elected politicians (in DC and abroad) deal with mending our shaky relationships with foreign governments instead of placing that burden on Paul�s shoulders. He�s an athlete that�s worked tremendously hard his entire life, giving up so many things that the rest of us would consider part of a normal childhood and early adulthood. His whole life he has been working towards the dream of Olympic Gold� and now you want him to give that up too?? If the citizens of other countries don�t like Americans, I�m sure it�s not because of Paul Hamm. Maybe it has more to do with our �we can do whatever we want and ignore international law when it suits our needs� foreign policy. And maybe it has more to do with our cowboy hat-wearin, can�t form a coherent sentence, I�ll drop bombs without concrete proof President that we elected� oh wait, that was the Supreme Court�

And yes people, the citizens across the world DO think we Americans are all a bunch of six-shooter packin, cowboy bullies because that is what they perceive our President to be! And unfortunately they think that because that�s what they see on their TVs, that and Jay-Lo and Michael Jackson� rock on!

So the point is, leave Paul alone. Let him enjoy his Gold Medal that he clearly and fairly won and leave the job of repairing our shaky foreign relationships the guys we elected to run this crazy mixed up country.

Oh, and down with Bush!!

Paul Hamm won his medal fair and square. He did nothing wrong and followed the rules completely. I don't understamd how him giving up his gold medal would make him a champion. He already is just for winning the medal. The fact that the Koreans think Yang Tae-Young should have the medal is bogus because they have not followed by the rules and if the judges go back and look at an instant replay of the whole event they will see that the Korean should have had a two tenth deduction for too many holds (he had four - one more than the maximum three) so even if his start value had been correct his score should be one tenth lower than he actually got.

Since gymnastics are judged by HUMANS and HUMANS MAKE MISTAKES the scores are fair and Paul Hamm should not have to give up his medal to the Koreans. Also, if Paul gives his medal up what medal would he get? The other Korean that won the silver still scored lower than Paul so does that mean that the second place Korean should give up his silver medal? Of course not and because if the scoring had been right in the first place no one should be having to give up any medals.

i think that Paul Hamm deserved that medal 100% because if they went back and reviewed Pauls routines then they would have to go back and review everone who competed that night and Paul Hamm would have come out on top and it is wrong to ask someone to just give up a medal that they deserved and they no that he deserved it

"Paul Hamm won his medal fair"

Give me a break!
Anyone,who saw his performance and the game, knows who the real winner is.( unfortunately except some American people. people knows who is behind of the show.)

"Since gymnastics are judged by HUMANS and HUMANS MAKE MISTAKES the scores are fair and Paul Hamm should not have to give up his medal to the Koreans"

( Well..you're right.we are not "perfect", so we make mistakes every day.
But, if someone is hurt by the mistakes, is it excuse every time by the name of "human mistakes"? if it happens to American team in any sports next time, can you say,"All right, it's human mistakes. I don't care..... it's your gold medal."
Wow.... What a wonderful appreciation!
Thank. you're the real man! Then would you give up your money when the bank makes mistakes?)

"now you want him to give that up too?? If the citizens of other countries don�t like Americans, I�m sure it�s not because of Paul Hamm."
( of course because of him..... he exchanges his sportsmenship to gold medal.he sold his honor to darkside. He said he is the right person to be deserved to have gold medal on one of T.V shows. Come on.....)

"because if the scoring had been right in the first place no one should be having to give up any medals"
( well. that's not true. if you know what the sportsmenship is. it's not talking about the gold or siver but honor and pure competion. I think you have seen a lot of commecial sports without sportsmenship.)

Since after a review of the routine it was determined that two scoring errors occurred, why are you only focusing on the error that hurt the South Korean gymnast and not the one that helped him?

Simple question someone please answer...

Actually, the Americans aren't behind the gymnastics competition, and never were. I'm sure if it were really an American sponsored event, we would still play fairly and respect the rules. However, if it's an American run and American biased competition, don't you imagine that an American would have won the all-around gold at some point in the one hundred some-odd years the Olympics have been taking place before this?

Paul Hamm is the only American male to ever have won the award, so I'd say either we're not being biased, or we're doing a very good job of being tricky. I mean, it was quite a plan losing twenty seven olympics in a row just so we could pull off that ruse and seize the gold on the twenty-eighth run.

Give me a break, folks. Leave Mulder and Scully in retirement where they belong and keep the X-Files closed. The Lone Gunmen aren't running here, and there isn't any dark shadow conspiracy to rob people going on.

Besides, all this controversy over gymnastics, and I don't hear anyone crying foul that the Chinese judge was removed from the diving competition because he was being blatantly biased in favor of the Chinese divers. That certainly skewed the competition, putting the Chinese divers in a much better position than they deserved to be in. Arguably, one of the Chinese divers might not even have made it into the final rounds of diving, thus clearing the way for Alexandre Despatie (who is NOT an American... let me say that in advance) to win a medal, which he was shut out of.

Has anyone thrown a fit over the fact that this happened? No. The rules of the competition were observed. The judge was exused and the competition continued in all fairness... the results of the competition were accepted and the medals were awarded.

The Olympic Gymnastics competition isn't run by Americans. It is held by the International Olympic Committee, which is based in Lausanne, Switzerland (a country absolutely rabid about its lack of bias). It is certified valid by the Federation Internationale De Gymnastique, based out of Moutier... also in Switzerland.

Believe me, the Swiss have absolutely no loyalty to the United States, and have a long history of telling us to go stuff it whenever it suits them. They do that to every single last other country in the world, in fact. That's why these things are held there... because if there's a single people on the face of the Earth who can pull off not being biased, it's them.

Paul Hamm isn't being a poor sport. He isn't displaying poor sportsmanship. He is doing exactly what a good sport should do. He is looking at the rules of the competition, and abiding by them. He did so before the competition. He did so during the competition, and now that it's over, he's still doing so. He has never, not once, wavered from his stance... which has been entirely focused on the rules of the game. In fact, in all of this, Paul Hamm is the only person involved that seems to have paid attention to the rules of the sport throughout the entire event.

And for those who don't like that, let me ask what you think should govern a game if not the rules laid down for play? That's the only thing that keeps any game or sport, from gymnastics to diving to football to water polo, being what it is. It's the only thing that allows the competition to take place fairly, and allows us to determine who the legitimate winner is in the competition...

And according to the rules that keep the gymnastics games being what they are and allow us to determine who the legitimate winner is in the competition, Paul Hamm won. He's exemplifying the very spirit of sportsmanship by defending the rules of the game and his gold medal. Doing anything else would not only be a betrayal of himself, but a betrayal of the sanctity and validity of the sport he competes in.

In response to Caroline, there are a couple of unfortunate reasons why everyone is focusing on the error that hurt Yang Tae Young and not the one that helped him:

1. They only know half the story. This is helped by the media reporting everwhere that Paul only won because of a "scoring error", which of course doesn't take into consideration the hold deduction. They also don't mention that scores are always debated and many controversies have come about in this and other gymanstics competitions as a result. It's not as simple as they present it. Even sports without subjective scoring have frequent unfairness and controversy.

2. Even though the hold deduction is mandatory (i.e. not subjective as some people suggested) just like stepping out of bounds on the floor exercise, it is up to the "B" panel of judges to take this deduction, because they are in charge of all deductions (the "A" panel only determines the start value of the routine). Technically you cannot protest the "B" panel's scores, only those of the "A" panel. So even though they did clearly miss a 0.2 deduction that would have lowered Young's score, there's no way within the rules to challenge their decision. The "A" panel can be protested, though only before the end of that rotation (which the Koreans reportedly did not do).

3. It's an exciting story, and like all stories, it's more dramatic if you simplify it and leave out some truth. The media is trained to do this, and it works quite well.

"Since after a review of the routine it was determined that two scoring errors occurred, why are you only focusing on the error that hurt the South Korean gymnast and not the one that helped him? "

Simple question someone please answer
( Of course,dear.....
First, the two errors you talked about are not enough to give him siver. it's not critical errors to give the gold to Paul.
But, the terrible mistakes which happened by the judges is absoutely hamming his point.)

Futhermore, look at the review of paul performance,especially last landing moment.
is it perfect? or not? didn't he make any mistake on his performance?

look at the review of two plays again.
Then, you'll find the answer which you asked before.
Thanks

The idea of Paul Hamm giving up his gold medal or even sharing that gold medal is ridiculous. Even if we forget the fact that Yang Tae Young actually got more points than he should have for his parallel bars routine, he still should not get the gold medal!!! There are more parts to a gymnastics meet than those 6 routines that each gymnast performs. There is also a set of rules that everybody needs to follow in order for the competition to be fair. The rules are in place to specifically deal with situations such as incorrect start values being given to a gymnast's routine. The Koreans did not follow these rules, for 1 of 2 reasons. Either they didn't know the rules fully or they didn't follow the rules. If they didn't understand the rules then shame on them. How can you enter an Olympic competition, the biggest event in gymnastics, and not fully understand the rules. If they did understand the rules then they didn't follow them. Again, this is their fault. They claim the judges told them to file the protest after the competition. My question is, if they did understand the rules, why did they not demand to file the protest right then knowing that if they didn't it could put their gymnast's medal hopes in jeopardy? Had it been an American gymnast whose start value was incorrect, you better believe that the American coaches would've made sure it was fixed while still following the rules. So why is everyone blaming poor Paul Hamm for mistakes he didn't make? The bottom line is that everyone understood the rules before going into that competitionn and everyone agreed to follow them. Awarding a gold to Tae-Young would break the rules that were established for this reason. If we break the rules for him should we break them for everyone else, too? What would be the point of having rules then? Someone in a post prior to this one said Hamm is a loser because he fell on the vault, but I wish they could see that the opposite of that statement is true. The fact that he fell, kept his cool and still performed impeccable routines afterwards is a testament to what an amazing champion he is. Many lesser athletes would've crumbled under the pressure. He didn't and the fact that he could still even be in medal contention, let alone win gold, after such a low score shows how great an athlete he is. So I will continue support Paul as the true champion and I hope the rest of you will, too. He earned it!

Thank you, Orion. I agree with you. It is really unfortunate that very few people in the media even mention the second scoring error. What is even more sad is that the only person not at all responsible for this (Paul) is probably really being hurt by all of the negative things said about him.

Thank you, Orion. I agree with you. It is really unfortunate that very few people in the media even mention the second scoring error. What is even more sad is that the only person not at all responsible for this (Paul) is probably really being hurt by all of the negative things said about him.

to Lee:

Simple question someone please answer

"First, the two errors you talked about are not enough to give him siver. it's not critical errors to give the gold to Paul.
But, the terrible mistakes which happened by the judges is absoutely hamming his point.)"

I am confused by this stated. The two errors are not enough to give who the silver? They are, i fact, enough to give Young the bronze not silver.

"Futhermore, look at the review of paul performance,especially last landing moment.
is it perfect? or not? didn't he make any mistake on his performance?"

No on eis saying that Paul performance was perfect or else he would have received a 10.00.I am just saying that, on that night he received the highest scores on 3 out of 6 events this making him the best gymnast.

Dear : Caroline

I am confused by this stated. The two errors are not enough to give who the silver? They are, i fact, enough to give Young the bronze not silver.
( well. that's not real. As I told you, look at the review of two players very closely. Paul made more critical errors on his performance. as a matter of fact, he is out of medal. he didn't land very well several times. again..is he better landing more than the other guys?)

No on eis saying that Paul performance was perfect or else he would have received a 10.00.I am just saying that, on that night he received the highest scores on 3 out of 6 events this making him the best gymnast.
( the highest scores? where this scores came from? It's from the judges who made a mistake.
Is it reliable or objective?

Let's me tell you one thing.
You're talking now that everying is fair, and there is no mistake about his gold.
Then I sugguest you to ask this issue to other nations,Russia,china or westen countires except Korea or United States.

Then, do they agree with you or me?
In addition, Russian guy's perfomance is better than paul.

Lee, what are you basing your statements on? Just your opinion that Paul is inferior? He is the reigning world all-around champion and he won the qualifying and final rounds at the Olympics. Are you saying all of that was just bad judging?

Why would international judges want an American to win? You think this is favoritism of some kind?

You only mentioned landings as mistakes of Paul's. He only had one poor landing, which was on his vault. His other routines were excecuted extremely well. I haven't heard anybody argue that point except you (and yes, that includes people from many different countries).

Lee, I am not trying to be confrontational so please do not take anything say that way but... Gymnastic has always been a subjective sport. Judges base their scores on what they see in real time. This is why we do not go back and review the tapes. If we were to to review every gymnasts performance on every event we might in fact see errors that are missed when they are viewed in real time. As someone who competed in gymnastics for many years I can tell you that sometimes you feel your score is too low and other times you feel your score is higher than you expected. It is simply the nature of the sport. Most artist sports are the same way. In watching the diving competitions I saw scores vary by as a much as 2 1/2 points. It is not because people are striving to be dishonest it is simply the nature of beast.

Again not meaning to be confrontational but I disagree with your evaluation of Paul and Young. When I reviewed the competion (I taped all of the gymnstics) I thought Young's routines were often sloppy at times and felt Sucio (who finished Fourth) was much stronger than Young on most of the events. But this is why you and I are not judges. Let us not forget taht Paul Hamm came into the olympics as the World Champion so other judges must have also felt that he was a Champion as well. The US is obviously not paying judges off or anything like that or else this would not be our first gold medal in this event.

As far as the question about whether or not the situation is fair... Is it fair to totally disregard the rules governing the sport ie. the time in which an athlete has to bring an error to the attention of the judges, which is the end of the following event and not the next day. Is it fair to ask that rules be changed to benefit you but no one else?

In fact, most countries are not in agreement with you. I don't remember which channel but some athletes from other countries where questioned and they basically said that the rules are in place for a reason.

I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye but I am a fairly open minded person and I truly do believe that Paul deserved to win. I guess we will all have to wait and see what happens at the next world championship and in Beijing.

I'm in agreement with Caroline and Orion on this one. One of the Romanian gymnasts who didn't medal said Paul got more than he deserved. However, I haven't heard any other voices of dissent from the athletes concerning whether or not Paul Hamm should have won the gold, and if you'll see my previous comments, that includes a quote by Yang himself saying he didn't deserve the gold medal because of his own mistakes... and while it isn't a statement about Paul's all-around gold medal, you have to remember that Alexi Nemov actually got up in Paul's defense later in the meet during a high bar exercise in which Paul beat Alexi to win silver. I don't imagine he would have done so if he thought Paul Hamm was an uncharitable cheat.

As for whether or not other countries besides the United States think Paul Hamm deserve his medal, I will again point out that the competition was held, judged, and certified by organizations headquartered in Switzerland, not the United States... and we have already had someone FROM SOUTH KOREA ring in during the course of this discussion to say that Paul Hamm deserved his gold medal, so no, I don't think there's a worldwide consensus against Paul Hamm in this matter.

What is the whole point of sports? It is to play the game, play it good, and play by the rules. Which is exactly what Paul Hamm did, and by doing so, he won the gold. If the South Korean had a problem with the score, he had a chance to protest after his performance. They have a time limit to these things and since they did not follow the rules, then he has no leg to stand on. Paul Hamm is a gold medal winner, end of story, period. Now can't we support him instead of giving him crap. Doesn't everyone have to follow the rules, or shall we just make up special ones so that all those who screw up get an extra chance. How would that be fair? Shall we go back to super bowl XX and call that penalty in the five yard line so that the touchdown is overturned and history is changed? Come on, get off Pauls back. This crap is making me sick and I feel awful for what Paul has to go through.

Susan and Andrew B., I couldn't agree with you more.

It truly fascinates me how: 1) so many people who are completely uninformed about this issue seem to have a steadfast opinion on it, and 2) many journalists who clearly know nothing about gymnastics seemily feel qualified enough to render a verdict on what Paul Hamm should do now.

We all know that Yang Tae-Young's parallel bar start value was too low (which should have been corrected by his COACHES BEFORE the competition was over), and that Yang was also not deducted two-tenths of a point that he should have been for an extra hold. While this certainly justifies Paul's rightful claim to the gold medal, the real point to be made here is that all of this SHOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE.

The South Korean coaches, just as all the coaches, had the opportunity to correct errors before the rotations were over. It has been publicly stated how the U.S. coaches contested the start values of some of their athletes during competition. The Korean coaches, on the other hand, didn't do the same for Yang Tae-Young. And so, the competition ended, and Paul was at the top of the podium wearing the gold. There is no video review, there is no amending the results. We can never know what may have happened had Yang's start value been right, maybe the pressure of being on top would have been too much and he wouldn't have even medaled. The point is we can't go back, the competition is over, the final results are the final results.

But no, the media has taken this story and ran with it. And it is their reporting of half-truths and editorials by uninformed writers that has propelled this story into the stratosphere. (I don't mean to bash the media here, I am myself a journalist, but I am truly disgusted by what I've seen in my profession thus far.)

And then of course, there is the FIG, whose continual public displays of incompetence continues to give the media something to salivate over. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person struck by how Paul Hamm - the athlete - seems to be the only person in his sport who respects and is governed by its rules. The FIG doesn't seem to realize that in its cowardice, it is undermining the very thing that gives it its legs to stand on: the rules of the sport.

While I consider the FIG to be a laughing stock at this point, one bright spot in this mess is the person at its very center - Paul Hamm. I am continually impressed by this young man. You want to talk about sportsmanship and integrity? Just look at the diplomatic way he handled himself during those first 10 days when USA Gymnastics and the USOC -- which are supposed to have his back -- left him twisting in the wind to defend himself. (Don't even get me started on how the FIG has treated him!) Paul's demonstration of strength of character throughout all of this has been truly amazing. Not only is he a tremendous athlete, he has also proven himself to be a tremendous person - one who stands up for what he knows in his heart to be right and is unwilling to compromise himself or his sport for the sake of (misguided) public opinion and pressure.

And for those of you out there who disagree with me and think Paul should relinquish his gold medal to Yang, let me point out a few things. First of all, even if he were to physically hand over his gold medal, he will still be credited in the history books as the winner. No athlete has the power to go back and change the results after a competition is over - that is a clear violation of the rules, and would be a sign of disrespect for the rules and the sport. Secondly, Paul simply handing over his gold is not what the Koreans want. They do not want HIS medal, they want their OWN gold medal. And that is simply not going to happen because, as the USOC President has said, there are no grounds for awarding a duplicate gold medal in this case.

I think this will always be a devisive topic of sorts because some people are simply unwilling to see the whole picture. But in an attempt to bridge that gap, let me spell it out in no uncertain terms...

Judging gymnastics is subjective and always has been. (Perhaps the judging system needs tweaking, but that line of questioning is irrelevant here.) Judges can and do make mistakes, but the coaches are given opportunities to address those mistakes and have them corrected before the competition is over. Once the game clock has expired and play has officially ended, the results are tallied up and the winner is crowned. Period, end of story.

What we have here is simply a case of the Korean coaches not utilizing the corrective opportunities afforded to them. There are NO grounds whatsoever to blame the athletes: it's not Paul Hamm's fault he scored what was necessary to win the gold, and it's not Yang Tae-Young's fault that his start value was too low and not corrected by his coaches. And it's not even the judges fault necessarily for giving Yang too low a start value -- why do you think the rulebook gives coaches the opportunity to correct those mistakes? It's like a checks-and-balances system.

If you're looking to blame anyone here, it should be the Korean coaches for not paying attention enough to correct Yang's parallel bar start value within the alloted time. And, you can also point the blame finger at the FIG for being so highly incompetent as to pass the blame onto the most vulnerable and innocent person involved - Paul Hamm, the athlete.

Ummm, I don't see how no one could not have noticed Young's 4th stop, which incurs a 2 tenth deduction. I mean, people are saying how Hamm's a bad sportsman or "not a champion" or whatever and yet they say nothing of how Young got a break for that fourth stop. If he were smart he would keep his mouth shut, 'cause he should be in 5th place or whatever. In fact, if I were in 4th or 5th I would make a fuss over this 'cause he wouldn't even be medal-worthy if they gave him that tenth he deserved for his start value and then took away the 2 tenths for the extra stop. Get the story straight, and the whole story, you morons, and stop acting like you know what you're talking about.

Actually, since there is a .126 difference between Yang's score and the score of the fourth place finisher (Romanian gymnast Ioan Suciu), so Yang's score, even adjusted for both errors (which would result in a net loss of .10 points), would still leave him .026 points ahead of the fourth place finisher, and winner of the bronze medal, so he deserves the bronze that he won in any case. He just doesn't deserve the gold.

Yes Andrew, but again, that's if everything would have played out the same way. We must also take into consideration that the psychology of the athletes would have also changed had the standings been different going in to the final event. As we saw, many athletes buckled under the pressure toward the end, which is what helped Paul Hamm make that jump from 12th to 4th place going into his high bar routine. While we can review this matter in terms of the final point totals, we simply cannot know how the mental and emotional components -- which are just as important in sport as the physical component if not more so -- would have affected each athlete's performance that night.

No, actually we don't have to take psychology into account at this point. The meet's over. The scores have been established. How the athletes MIGH have performed under different circumstances is irrelevant. I MIGHT have won the gold medal in Athens myself if I hadn't shattered my foot in college, rendering me incapable of walking without a severe limp, let alone running or jumping ever again. That's not the point.

The point is what did happen, which is absolutely what the Koreans are complaining about... what DID happen. So the ONLY things we have to consider at this point are a) adding .10 points to the overall score of Yang's routine to account for the start value error, and b) subtracting .20 points for the error of the extra hold, which wasn't properly taken into account on his routine.

Unless you're going to completely cancel out everyone's score and re-hold the competition from the point at which the parallel bar routines were scored, the psychology of the athletes, how they would have performed differently if the scores had been different, etc... etc... etc... are all entirely irrelevant because as you very rightly point out, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to even predict what the effect might have been, let alone change anything based on it. The only thing that can be taken into account at this point is what can possibly be changed.

Hence my earlier statement that the only possible effect changing the start value of Yang's score could have is adding .10 of a point, and the only thing that taking the missed deduction into account could possibly have is taking off .20 of a point. There isn't a single other thing that can possibly be taken into account at this point. The Koreans made sure to eliminate any other "real life" uncertainties from the mix with the way they chose to protest the results...

So the end result of all of this is that the only thing anyone could do would be to adjust Yang's score to take both errors into account, which gives him a 57.674 final score, leaving him just ahead of Ioan Suciu's score of 57.648 and still in bronze medal position, with Paul Hamm still in gold medal position with a final score of 57.823.

What might have been, I'm sorry to say, is just lost in the mists of a past gone by.

Edit: MIGH = MIGHT.

Dear : Caroline and the other guys.

Guys, unfortunately. your sayings are just the same way the commecial media made.
Again, remember there are still two different views around the world.
This views can not change anyway..whatsoever.

But,Remember it happens to other countries next game.

You guys are talking about technical issues which are published by American media,which makes a hero.
Keep in mind that "Techical issues" can be changed any time by different views.

If he is a real winner, he is deserved to be respected by other nations as well as America.
Then,is he respected by all around the world?

And if he is a real winner, why are still arugements about his victory? because do they come from only hateness of Korean people?

is it the only matter between korean and American?

Do not make this isusse simplyfy,guy.

The real issues are that the fact of "judges are wrong" and " What is the next?"

Do you have a comment about my two issues?

How disappointing that you used an Olympic athlete's experience to espouse your political views. One athlete's actions do not represent either the Presidency or the state of affairs in the U.S. You should be ashamed....

Dear Lee,

We are trying to discuss this issue by pointing out specifics of the event. Facts, reported by media around the world (not just American media), as well as opinions. If we are quoting facts and specifics and you disagree, please present us with your counter-argument. If you're not specific about why you disagree, your argument is not pursuasive. Saying that the media is wrong and the rest of the world thinks differently are general statments with no facts behind them.

I have found that the media (even the American media) makes mistakes that HURT Paul Hamm by leaving out the specifics of the scoring issue, making it look much simpler than it is.

To me this has very little to do with what country the athletes are from. I have been a gymnast and gymnastics fan for many years, and my favorite gymnasts are those from the former Soviet republics. I agree that there were some cases of poor judging and officiating in this Olympics, but I think it helped and/or hurt many athletes in many sports. Those who villianize the U.S. over this one case always seem to be people with an ax to grind against the country.

Orion once again, I completely agree with you.

Lee, I have done my best to be kind in my responses to you but I take offense to your statements. I am not making my decisions based on what American media is saying. I am basing my opinions on what I saw the night of competion. You have said things like, Paul didn't stick landings and use that as the basis of your opinion. Gymnastics is not all about the landing. It is about the routine taking as a whole. This includes such things as form breaks, missed required elements and performing too many of certain item (ie. Youngs extra hold) all of these things go into the final score. I don't know what your personal experience is in gymnastics but I for one competed for 15 years and my brother trained for many years with Bart Conner, Mitch Gaylord, Peter Vidmar etc... so I think I may have a little more knowledge than the average person on this sport. I am basing my opinions on this knowledge not on what other people say.

PS. I don't think PAul came to the olympics to be a "hero". He came to perform well and according to the rules. Both of which, he did.
PSS. I do not hate Koreans or anyone else for that matter and I don't believe anyone else here does, so please stop making comments like that. They are unnecessarily hurtful.

Lee, I look at the comments posted on another web site from time to time and decided to test your theory that only Americans believe that Paul should have won the gold.... well here are my finding... I looked at the most recent 100 entries, most were entered by Americans but there were 4 from the UK, 3 from Japan, 1 from Canada, 1 from Mexico and 2 from Australia, 1 from South Korea... all in favor of Paul keeping the medal. There were two others from South Korea that spoke out against Paul keeping the medal. I guess that kind of blows a hole in your theory Americans believe that the outcome was correct. Seems to me that based on this small sampling (I realize this is not a scientific method) most of the world agrees with the US...

Thank you Andrew B., Renee, Orion, Caroline and others for intelligently bringing to this string the whole picture and FACTS, which both JCool and Reggie Rivers obviously failed to see. It is shameful that they would attack Paul Hamm's integrity with such ignorance: " Paul Hamm has proven himself anything but a champion when he walks off the mat." It is well established that Paul Hamm is a deserving champion, protecting what he has rightfully earned.

It's a shame that the media has made such a mess of this, just to get a story or a chance get on a soap box which stands on half-truths. JCool and the media owe Paul Hamm and the public a resounding apology for tarnishing this Olympic experience. Since you all have brought common sense into the picture, I feel I can respond to JCool's abstract " he would have gone down as one of the great heroes of olympic history, held up to generations of children as an icon of virtue and sportsmanship," without having to argue the obvious, that Paul was and is the 2004 Men's All-Around Gymnastics, Olympic Champion. You all did that well. I am sad for Paul and what opinions stated in ignorance did to his "dream-come-true" experience. But I am also sad for another involved party, the public.

In the moment that Paul dismounted the high-bar, my 4 1/2 year old son (one of that "generation of children") did witness the substance of a true champion. The next day, I had my son look a an image of Paul falling into the judges table, and asked if he thought Paul should have given up. He said, "yes," because lately he has been comparing himself to his cousin who rides a tricycle faster, swims faster, runs faster. I then showed him an image of Paul clapping his hands as he walked off the mat (a champion, by the way), and told him, "this is what can happen if you don't give up." Mikey growled: he's a hard sell. "Mikey, look in his eyes." He did- he stared; and slowly, he smiled. Later, when he swung and missed while we played baseball, he laughed, "I thouldn't give up, thould I? Paw Hamm didn't" And my heart broke with joy. Isn't THAT why we watch the Olympics? Yes, to watch sports that we love, to see the winners' dreams come true, but also, to remind ourselves to be the best we can be, and to spark our kid's dreams? Please excuse my idealism, but this is the kind of stuff we should focus on after so fantastic a performance. All this controversy is sooo besides the point, because Paul is the deserving champion, plain and simple. I couldn't say this if he wasn't: just let Paul enjoy his dream-come-true, and let us have our hero, without painting a black cloud that shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Edit: Jay Smooth, not JCool. Sorry.

Viv, thank you for that personal story about your son and how Paul's accomplishment has helped him learn one of the greatest lessons in sports and in life: Never give up. I still get shivers up my spine when I rerun Paul's final high bar routine - it was truly inspiring and is as magical an Olympic moment if ever there was one.

I just looked at the routines again.
The Korean's high bar routine was awefull!
I think that score was way too high. He had many form breaks throughout the routine.
So, the bottom line is the judging was terrible. Many mistakes were made. By the rules, Paul Hamm won. Nothing should be changed.

Did the judge deduct points from Paul Hamm for illegally spotting him on the vault? (He touched him before he came to a rest.) I believe that is a deduction.

Go Paul. You deserve the Gold! You are the best gymnast the U.S. has ever had.

I think Hamm was amazing and is within his rights to keep the medal. I don't think anyone can blame him for wanting to keep it.

I think he should only return it he feels he should. Considering all of the training he went through and his performance that night, that would be both heartbreaking and magnanimous at the same time and would elevate him to the status of Ghandi. But he's a gymanst, not a nobel peace prize winner. How many people are really going for sainthood?

I think both him and Yang are victims of circumstance.

Lee,

First, let me say I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion. However, I do like some sort of supporting evidence for WHY people hold the opinion they do. Unfortunately, your argument sounds a lot like the argument I heard from eighty percent of the people around me in Oklahoma during the last Presidential election when I asked why they were planning on voting for a dangerously unqualified candidate and they replied "He's not Bill Clinton..." which pretty well summed up EVERY candidate in the election.

As near as I can tell, your entire argument comes down to "Paul Hamm doesn't deserve a gold medal because he's an American and I hate him." Fortunately, neither of these is a criteria for being an Olympic champion.

Whether or not people love Paul Hamm, or even like him, is entirely beside the point to whether or not he deserves the gold medal. Champions aren't champions because they're loved, liked, lauded, revered, awed, or feared. They're champions because they have the ability to overcome the obstacles in their way and distinguish themselves as the best among those competing against them. Whether or not you (or anyone else) like or respect the man is completely and utterly irrelevant... but as has been pointed out by several others, he has a very broad base of support.

As for your two issues "the judges were wrong", and "what comes next", this is the scoop.

The FIG admitted the judges were technically wrong about the start value and suspended all three judges, though I'm not sure they should have. The reason the start value was lowered, according to the two judges (one from Spain and one from Columbia... again, no Americans involved in making that decision), was that Yang changed his routine so that one of his elements was lower in difficulty than it was originally intended to be. Therefore, they deducted .10 points from the overall value of his routine.

The FIG technical judge who oversees these decisions (who is, admittedly, an American), did not review the decision because as a matter of course the technical judge does not review the decision unless the two start value judges disagree on the overall start value, which they didn't. They saw exactly the same thing and took exactly the same action, so there was no reason for him to review in that case. Unfortunately, the FIG determined their decision to be in error, and suspended them from future judging in order to make sure further judging errors did not occur during the competition. So there the judging was, arguably, wrong.

As for the second error, the B panel of judges, while watching the same routine, failed to score a .20 point deduction due to the fact that Yang committed four holds (and if you watch the routine very nearly committed five) in a routine where a maximum of three holds are allowed.

Now then, that's where the judging is wrong. The contention of the Korean officials in this instance is that only one of these two errors should be corrected... and they would be correct that the second error, that of the "hold" deduction, cannot be taken into account at this point because the B panel scoring cannot be questioned after the fact, nor may it be video reviewed.

The problem with this entire controversy is that the first error, that of the start value not correctly scored, cannot be taken into account at this point because the A panel scoring cannot be questioned after the end of the event, either... nor may it be video reviewed.

The Korean officials, in insisting that the performance be reviewed after the end of the event, and by video, breaks not only the rules to review the start value error, but breaks the rules in such a way that both errors can be reviewed, even if they are insisting that only one error be taken into account.

So, the bottom line of the judging controversy goes something like this:

"Yang deserves the gold because they judged his routine wrong."

"Yes, but when you look at what they judged wrong, he deserves a lower score than he actually got, not a higher one."

So that's the controversy. If you stand by the scores given, Paul wins. If you break the rules evenly and re-score Yang, Paul wins. If you break the rules to JUST take into account what can help Yang, then Yang wins... and the question is "which of those three courses of action should be taken under the circumstances"?

Personally, and I don't think anyone has missed my opinion on this up to this point, I think either you stand by the results because that's what's within the rules (what I would prefer they do), or you "break the rules fairly" and take both judging errors into account. Either course of action leaves the medal standings the same.

As for the second part, "what comes next", this is the way it stands:

1) The IOC considered the matter closed when the results were certified and the event ended. The Koreans didn't contest the results when they were afforded the opportunity to do so, and the rules say they may no longer contest the results. So, as far as the IOC is concerned, there is no controversy. Paul Hamm won his gold medal in all fairness and good sportsmanship and should get to keep it without question or without any tarnish to his abilities as an athlete. The IOC has closed the case on this matter and certifies Paul Hamm the gold medal winner of the Men's All-Around. The Koreans have no option to appeal.

2) The FIG considered the case closed and certified Paul Hamm the winner of the competition when the event ended. The only reason the President of the FIG dispatched a letter to Paul Hamm requesting he return his medal was because Paul Hamm's position on the subject was less than clear. The FIG has since made it very clear that they initially considered Paul Hamm the winner of the competition. They have made it clear they would have unilaterally supported Paul Hamm's position if he had stated his position differently to begin with, and they have made it clear now that Paul Hamm has clarified his position, they now unilaterally support Paul Hamm as the winner of the gold medal in the Men's All-Around. The FIG will not reconsider the results in this case, and have closed the matter with the decision that Paul Hamm won the gold medal. The Koreans cannot appeal this decision.

3) The Koreans can appeal Paul Hamm's win of the gold medal to the Sports Court of Arbitration, which has the power to review the case and award the medals differently. However, the Court has already indicated the appeal would not be appropriate, and that there was very little chance they would even hear the case, let alone rule in favor of Yang in the matter. According to statements made by spokesmen for the Court up to this point, their initial review of the case suggests that all the rules were followed, and that Paul Hamm's medal was legitimately won and certified, leaving no real case to arbitrate. Therefore, while the Koreans may still appeal to the Sports Court for Arbitration, there is very little chance for them to successfully plead their case.

In all three instances, this suggests that the "what next" is that Paul Hamm retains his title as the winner of the gold medal in the Men's All-Around and Yang retains his title as the winner of the bronze medal in the Men's All-Around.

The "controversy" concerning Paul Hamm's medal has largely died down in the media, and is virtually non-existant in any of the ruling bodies of the Olympics Gymnastic Competition. The remaining controversy is almost entirely being argued out among the fans of the sport, who are naturally more likely to continue to discuss the situation long after an official decision has been made (which it pretty much has been at this point), because the fans may argue through their passion where the ruling bodies governing the contest must make their decisions with a dispassionate mind.

Let me be clear about one more thing. I consider Yang an Olympic Champion just as much as I consider Paul Hamm one. It is an amazing feat to even secure the chance to compete in the Olympics, let alone win a medal during the competition, and Yang was able to do both. I think he has every right to be proud of his accomplishments, and I think he should be regarded as the Olympic Champion he is.

I just don't think he should be regarded as the Olympic Champion Paul Hamm turned out to be.

I dont think paul hamm shoud give up his gold mediedl he just did what he was needed to do

I dont think paul hamm shoud give up his gold mediedl he just did what he was needed to do

I dont think paul hamm shoud give up his gold mediedl he just did what he was needed to do

I dont think paul hamm shoud give up his gold mediedl he just did what he was needed to do

I dont think paul hamm shoud give up his gold mediedl he just did what he was needed to do

u guys are scaring me

you may be carrying obsession a bit too far

You bleeding heart liberals only see America that way because that's how you want to see it. Any negative attitude that other nations have about this country comes from them listening to people like you come up with crap like that.

And by the way, Dubya and Paul do have one thing in common, they will both be defending their titles one day, and BOTH will win. America isn't quite ready to relinquish its values to crooked Olympic committees or crazy "let's flush all our morals down the Johns" left wingers such as yourself.

I think Paul shouldn`t give up his medal.He worked hard and earned it and if they give it to the Korean other countries will start to protest.I`m sure im not the only one on Paul`s Side.~~~P.S.~~~I ♥ Paul Hamm so much♥♥♥♥♥♥

I totally �◘○♦♣♠☺☻♥���-�◄►�love paul

My goodness, Go Paul is very angry about something (or at someone). Deep breaths, Paul... deep breaths.

PAUL HAMM WON THE GOLD.HE DONE HIS JOB HE DONE NOTHING WRONG.HE SHOULD NOT GIVE IT BACK WHEN THE KOREAN IS THE WHO HELD ONE TO MANY HOLDS,WICH WOULD HAVE PUT HIM FOURTH PLACE NOT FIRST!PAUL HAMM DESERVES THE GOLD,HE SHOULD NOT GIVE IT BACK TO THE KOREAN WHEN HE DESERVED FOURTH PLACE!HE IS DOING THE RIGHT THING.AND I DON'T AGREE WITH AWARDING A SECOND GOLD MEDAL WHEN THE GUY DIDN'T EVEN DESERVE THIRD PLACE..

Actually, I think Yang Tae-Young should be happy with a bronze. If the routine had been judged correctly, including the extra hold as well as the correct start value, Yang Tae-Young would be looking at a score that was .10 less than the one he received. That doesn't seem like much, but in this competition, that would send him to 13th place. He should just be happy the judges made the mistake because it put him into a medal-winning position instead of a slightly depressing 13th.

I still don't think Paul should give up his medal. He is an athlete that played by the rules and came out on top because he didn't cheat.
PS I really hope Paul doesn't read this article by J Smooth. If I were him I would be emotionally hurt for a very long time that my own countrymen don't back me up on my decision.

I still don't think Paul should give up his medal. He is an athlete that played by the rules and came out on top because he didn't cheat.
PS I really hope Paul doesn't read this article by J Smooth. If I were him I would be emotionally hurt for a very long time that my own countrymen don't back me up on my decision.

I find myself wondering where everyone is getting that Yang should end up fourth, fifth, or even thirteenth place if you adjust his score. If you subtracted .10 points off his score, he'd still be the bronze medal winner because he was .126 points ahead of the fourth place finisher as the results were scored, meaning he'd still be ahead of the fourth place finisher by .026 points once the subtraction was made. His standings in the competition wouldn't change.

If you would like more information about how gymnastics events are scored, and about the mistakes in scoring during the Olympics, this article is informative http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/23/swift.gym/
Paul Hamm played by the rules of the game, and by those rules he won. The South Korean coaches missed by not protesting the start value at the proper time. Those are the rules.
Jane

I do not know if any of you mentioned this but Paul did end up feeling like the whole world was against him. To be put into a position that makes you feel that way at such a young age is one of the worst things you could do, first of all Paul did deserve that medal and I believe if/when this goes to court he will keep it. Another thing, after this whole controversy you may remember in the high bar finals how Paul had to overcome yet another stand off and still went on to get silver. It is not fair to put a competitor in the position where they have to explain a thing they won fairly. Being a competitor in high school right now I know what that feels like and trust me it is not fair. As for comparing an athlete to a president who has basically ruined our country and its environment is totally sick and wrong.

paul hamm did absolutly nothing wrong why should he give up his gold? u tell me that? he deserves it 110% u don't work for something ur entire life and give it all up to be a so called "hero"! do u have no understanding of sprots whatsoever?

Paul hamm has little, if not nothing to do with this whole stupid ordeal. It was not HIS fault that the judges added up the start value wrong, or that the koreans protested to late, or that the judges didn't take off points for the extra hold.
all paul do was perform his best. None of the scores should be changed because a, the koreans protested too late b, if they gave the korean his one tenth of a point they should also deduct for the extract hold, c, if they do deduct for the extrahold this implies us of replay, which shouldn't be used in judgeing because then everyone's routines would also have to go thru replay, and that will just make a huge mess.

paul has refused to give up or share his gold medal, and the argument on wether he should have or shouldn't have has been exhausted more than enough. it is a thing of the past, so stop arguing.

another good question to contemplate is if paul hamm had given up his medal, or offered to share it, what would the media and the people around the world thought of him? ashamed that he gave it up? or proud that he shared it? has not sharing the medal given him the reputation as selfish?

I think this thing should be put to an end. In the sports of gymnastics and almost every other sport, what the judges says goes, end of story. so why is this any different?

Whether Paul Hamm should give his medal back or not is really irrelevant now. It is in the past, and apparently is going to stay the way it is.

Paul Hamm really in a sense whether he wants to or not has given his medal back already. There will always be a tarnished image of his gold medal title. Compare his return to the US versus Carly Patterson. She is in the spotlight - lots of postive, Hamm is in a lesser spotlight with a lot more negative!

He went out and did his job. After a fall like he took a lot of gymnasts would have given up, but not him. That is the sign of a true champion- whether he had the highest score or not.

As far a the start values, there were several other gymnasts that were given lower start values than in previous competitions. If we started picking these scores apart, the outcome of the whole games could of changed. Two americans would have had higher start values in the team competition. If we went back and changed those, would USA won the gold? Morgan Hamm received a lower start value on the high bar final. If he would have been given the correct start value, he would have won the bronze.

In a sport that is judged by human eyes, not the time clock. There are going to be errors. In my opinion if you keep saying what if, these competitions would go on forever. Lets leave well enough alone- Paul Hamm is the winner and rightfully so!

Paul hamm Rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SO does morgan,his twin.paul did an awesome job!He earned the gold.He should keep it!Jesus Loves You.

Jesus loves you,he died for you and washed away your sins,and rose again.Ask him into your life. He loves u very much.He will forgive u if u ask him.Turn from evil ways.Live for Jesus.He loves u and made u!!!God bless you!!!!

P.S. Paul Hamm ROCKS!!!!!

i think this is a VERY loaded subject. One that will be discussed for quite a long time... My opinion is he should have kept the medal, and i am glad he did. like quite a few people have said, if they go back and review the scores, they would have to go back and review them for every party involved, and that still wouldn't change the outcome. Tae-Young made mistakes as well, and his greed and envy isn't being judged here, just that of the one who will not give up his gold???? that is ludicrous!! Oh, and i loath your thoughts in taking this as an opportunity to degrade the president, how in the world does he have anything to do with this? Im sure he didnt call mr hamm and tell him "Paul, you need to keep the medal, i am trying to build a greedier america and this will personify what i have worked hard to do" NO!! Mr Bush is a christian man with exceptional morals, more than i can say for you!! Good job paul... Proud to be from the USA!!!!!

Paul deserves to keep his gold medal he earned it. As to whether Paul voluntarily gives his medal up or not is a moot point. The International Olympic Committee has awarded the medals and has no intention of changing who is listed as the gold medal winner in their books. All that would happen is that Yang-Tae Young would have a meaningless piece of gold-plated jewelry around his neck because the official Olympic record books would still have Paul Hamm�s name listed as the gold medal winner. The only way he could have that changed is to say that he cheated to win it, which he did not do. He played by the rules, and he won by the rules. As for sharing the gold, I believe he was willing to share it until the FIG wrote that letter asking him to fix their mistake so they could get out of the Olympic sized frying pan they were in.

About his "attitude" problem? Let's see what contributed to it:

1. He played by the rules, won by the rules and was awarded the gold medal by the rules.
2. The error was not his and was correctable by the S. Koreans during the event. You don't make it to this level of competition without knowing the rules. This is not the first time S. Korea has competed in gymnastics in the Olympics.
3. He was asked to fix a mistake that someone else made so that the FIG can look good.
4. He has been crucified in the papers and has had a microphone shoved under his nose every 5 minutes by reporters who keep hounding him about the controversy and what is he, Paul Hamm, going to do about it?

He never really had time to enjoy the thrill of victory. The media, in their frenzy to exploit a controversial story, have taken what should have been the greatest moment of his life and turned it into the agony of defeat. I don't know about anyone else out there but I think I would be more than a little upset and angry about having to constantly defend myself for a mistake I did not make. He has agreed to abide by an official decision made by the people in charge of awarding the medals (he is not one of those people and should never have been forced into the position of being one).

If we allow instant replay and after the game complaints to decide this matter then we need to go back through every Olympics and review them for mistakes as well. Reveiw every sporting event ever recorded on film to make sure that all the calls were correct. We'd be exchanging medals and trophies from now until sometime in the middle of the next millenium at which time the people and teams that lost them will file their claim to review that review in light of newer evidence. At some point you have to say enough is enough and let it go. Every nation at some point has felt that they lost a medal (or trophy) due to some controversial incident or poor judging. We could go on second guessing sporting events until the end of time to try and save peoples feelings but it still won't make the world a better place to live in because people will always find something new to bitch about.

Great posting Sheila.. I agree with you 100%...

HEY THERE PAUL HAMM AND MORGAN ROCK......PAUL SHOULD KEEP THE GOLD HE EARNED IT FAIR AND SQUARE....DONT GIVE UP THE GOLD.....WE ALL ARE PROUD OF YOU.....YOU ALL MADE AMERICA PROUD AND WE ARE LUCKY TO HAVE ALL OF YOU ON OUR SIDE!!

Paul played by the rules and won the gold medal. He came out on top and didn't break a single rule in the process. He should be proud of his achievements and every American should be proud that he represented our country. I know I am.

As for the Korean gymnast, Young, and the Korean gymnastics committee. They should be happy that judging errors happen. Had his parallel bar routine been judged correctly, yes he would have gotten a .1 increase in his start value. However, there also would have been a .2 deduction for too many holds. Video review is not allowed in gymnastics in the first place, so if you are going to go back and look at Young's perfomance, it should be looked at in a positive as well as a negative way.

Paul earned the gold medal, fair and square. He shouldn't give it up for any reason what-so-ever. I have so much respect for him. He has put up with a lot of people criticizing him and giving him shit for his good decision. And he has put up with this with a smile on his face. If I were him, I would have exploded by now.

Paul should never have been put in the position to decide whether or not he should give up his medal. That decision should have stayed with the FIG. The Korean gymnastics committee should live with the decision made by the FIG and should be happy with the bronze medal. Winning bronze is still one hell of an achievement.

I think that Paul has already suffered enough punishment for a mistake that he didn't make. His gold medal doesn't have the shine that Carly Patterson's does because of all of this. What should have been one of the greatest moments of his life has turned into possibly one of the worst. It is sad to see his fellow Americans against him.

Paul, if you happen to read this, DON'T GIVE BACK THE GOLD. It is rightfully yours. I'm proud of the way you have handled this situation and of your achievements. Congrats on a gold medal that is without a doubt YOUR gold medal.

Ok, I think this is so stupid. Ya'll are sayin that he should have gave his gold back that he did the wrong thing and well, I dont think he did. If that would have been you who won the Gold meadal you probly would'nt have given it to somebody who you think didnt do as well as you. I know I wouldnt.

Its Paul's. And if they give they other guy a gold also, that just kind of makes gettin the gold not so special, for both gymnasts.

Oh Yeah and they wathced the video of the other guys performance and they found a mistake they didnt even take off for.

Some of you guys may not agree, but It's Paul's.

CONGRATS TO PAUL!:D

Paul Hamm was correctly awarded the gold medal. For several reasons, one being the two-tenth deduction that was NOT taken on the Koreans parallel bar routine for four hold parts. However, the real reason I am upset is that in the sport of gymnastics, you have until the end of the rotation to put in a challenge on a score you don't like. The Koreans failed to do so because they didn't know that they would lose by such a small margin. However, the rules are the RULES, and by the rules, Paul Hamm won, fair and square. He should NOT give up his medal, because his comeback was one for the ages and he deserved to be in the position he was in--the best gymnast at the Olympics.

And folks, I have twenty years experience competing in the sport, fourteen years judging, and ten coaching......... just so you understand where I am coming from.

One more thing, for the record....As a judge, I am appalled at the errors made by the judges in the Olympics. I am equally appalled at how the crowd and officials reacted after Nemov's high bar routine. Both were classless....You don't change the score due to "peer pressure"....THAT'S unfair!

I am also appalled at FIG. To even ASK Paul Hamm to give his gold medal to the Korean, after the competition was over, is completely against THEIR OWN rules. The start values of the routines are flashed to the competitor and coach after the routine -- that is standard in international competition to avoid such mistakes on the start value. If the Koreans wanted to protest then, I would understand. However, they did not, and the FIG is being run by a bunch of idiots if they think that they can pawn off the responsibility on the Olympic champion.

But the really big issue to me? I worked my ass off in this sport for 90% of my life, and I take great pride in the fact that the U.S. finally has a MEN'S Olympic All-Around champion...only to be cheapened by the throngs of second-guessing journalists with absolutely no knowledge of how the sport is judged. Unless you have been in the shoes of the judge, back off your comments or you will be made to look like the dumb asses you are.

If you really want to get down to "fair play", let's talk about the Roy Jones fiasco in the Seoul Olympics......Think he should be awarded a gold medal too? He was much more deserving than the Korean gymnast........

I think everyone is reading into this controversy way to much. Paul Hamm got the gold, deserves the gold, and should keep the gold. End of story. It really surprises me how some of you can be so appearently angry at our athlete Paul Hamm. Are you Americans or what? We should all be backing this kid up 100% instead you bunch of jackasses have to write a lot of shit about how Paul should give his medal back to show the world that we're not bullies.
Also the fact that you liberals are bringing politics into this is just sickening. Saying you hate G dub-ya because he makes America seem arrogant. I say if arrogance is attacking terrorists then we should be as arrogant as we can be.
So in finishing I'm just going to say that we should all keep our eyes on the fact that Paul got that medal because he deserved it, and none of you sisses can say he didn't.
I love ya Paul, keep up the awesome work!!! :)

I totally agree that Paul should keep his medal. He rocks!!!!! I do feel bad for him. He is the best in the world! He was before he won the all-around too. Paul I don't know if you read this or not but I hope you do because alot of people have written great things about you. *Some people wrote some not so good things but they don't know what they are talking about*. You are such a great gymnast. Anyways, I have a point to make. Four years ago That tall Russian girl *I don't know how to spell her name*...the one who wanted the all-around gold because this was her last Olympics. Anyway, she fell on vault because it was to low but then she fell off of the bars because she was still mad at herself for falling on the vault, so it just goes to show you that when Paul fell on vault he showed everyone how great of a gymnast he really is by sticking his last two routines and doing the best that he could do and he got the gold. I am Paul Hamm's number one fan!!! P.S. Paul if you read this I want you to know that I have a 'Paul Hamm Wall' in my room. I'm praying for you and I hope you keep the gold because you 100% earned it! How did you get that scare on your right arm by your shoulder? Take care and God Bless!
-Melita Jo Veatch

really, yang tae young held on to the bar longer then he should? so, this justifies everything? well then, how about paul falling on his ass and crashing into the judges table? according to the world gymnastics federation his deductions should of been at least 1 point...w/that said...stop your ignorance.

It is wrong to try to put the whole pressure on Paul Hamm.

And then some people here saying that his actions (which were right by the way) will increase the hostility between the U.S. and Korea. Wow that is over exaggeration if I ever read it. This is a 21 year old guy who is a college student and a Gymnast in no way does his actions about deciding to keep the God medal (which he rightfully won) affect our over seas conflicts with Korea. (He is a 21 year old kid).

Our oversea conflicts have more to do with the two countries having different types of governments that don�t agree with the other and the production of nuclear weapons, not on if a gymnast really deserved the Gold all around title. (Which he did)

Some one made a commit about comparing the way Paul won his gold medal to the way Bush won the presidency in 2000. I would have to agree with this because they both won BY THE RULES. (Four More Years!)

For all you bringing politics into this I would much rather have Paul compared to Bush because if he were like Kerry he would have decided to return the medal than changed his mind saying he wants it back, then change his mind again and saying he should give it away, then change his mind again. (Flip- flopper)

George W. Bush 2004

Someone made a comment about how the �psychology of the athletes� would have changed. Well I don�t think that would have changed much because those other athletes proved that when they were on top close to the Gold they faltered and were not able to make comebacks from that. Paul had a bad vault and was able to put it out of his mind and pull of two outstanding routines. He had high scores on all of his events except vault and that let him climb to the top. While the other athletes that faltered did not. Paul�s psyche would have stayed the same because he was not aware of the chance to get the Gold medal. He was trying to just medal. Which he did.

I will not make arguments about How Paul deserved the medal because I think there have already been some great and supportive statements made here that sum it up.

(Oh and Paul was by far the best Gymnast at the Olympics)

Amen to Sheila's and Jeff's insightful posts of a few days ago. You both hit the nail on the head.

Paul Hamm knows, just as we all do, that he played and won by the rules - which makes him the rightful champion. A true athlete lives by and respects the rules of their sport. At this point giving his medal to Yang would be a disservice to athletes everywhere because, in effect, he'd be saying "Screw you and your rules!" to the Olympic games and all the athletes who competed, not to mention to the sport of gymnastics, and the IOC and USOC.

Now I've said my peace here and in a previous post, so I'll leave it at that. I think many-a-person on this message board has illustrated quite well how Paul Hamm is the rightful gold medalist. But I will add that I'm glad he is sticking to his convictions through all of this and not giving in to any outside pressures. Paul Hamm did this country proud in the Olympics, and I, for one, will be rooting for him to do the same four years from now in Beijing.

Well i think that paul rocks... i mean he got 22nd in vault and turns around to get to 1st or otherwise perfect performances- were you watching those events could of scored a perfect 9.9 in my opinion. that 1 vault was his only big mistake but other gymnast helped him get that gold. even if that other guy did deserve a higher point value he should of got deducted- i think it was just a big misunderstanding... really though lay off which one of you guys gold fall almost into the judges and turn around and win a gold and become my hero. on a final note PAUL HAMM IS IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM LIKE HOW CORRUPTED ASS BUSH GOT ELECTED PRESIDENT A& IM PROUD THAT HE WON

I think Paul Hamm is sooooooooo cute. He should not give back his gold medal. He went out and did what he had to do, it was the judges falt, not his. But I personally like Bush, I don't care what anyone thinks, Kerry is the lier here. I have Paul's pictures from the newspaper and computer all around my room and I deeply appreciate that HE is the 'one'. But don't say anything about Bush, 'cause that got me pissed, he did nothing wrong.
I LOVE YOU PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, for all you out there who think that Paul would have gone down in history for giving up a medal, drown yourselves in a large bowl of Campells soup, really, send me your adress so I can come and hold the bowl because you probably are not competent enough to do so.

Second of all, for all those who think that Yang Tae Young would have won and did win, taking in acount his +.1 point which he indeed deserved, you failed to truely read the facts. As stated in the rules for an Olympic high bar routine, a gymnast can only have three(3) grabs in his routine, and after reviewing the video, Yang had 4 holds. The deduction for violating that rule: two tenths of a point. So there you have it, Paul Hamm is an amazing athlete, character, and deserves his gold medal.

I am at Jknott04@hotmail.com if your bowl keeps falling off the table.

i'm sorry, but that post was a bunch of crap. don't compare paul hamm to president bush, because bush is an asshole. paul is only 21. he won the gold medal and should be allowed to celebrate that without all this crap that comes along from bad judging. it's not his fault the judges screwed up. and incase you haven't been updated, if the judging was done correctly yang wouldn't have won anyway, because of his extra hold. so stop bitching about hamm. i think he's handling the situation well. if anyone is to be looked down upon it's the people who asked him to give his gold medal back.... and er, kathleen... i like paul too, but that's kinda stalkerish.

There are three real issues here.

Paul Hamm won the goal medal and he is the best gymnast during 2004 Olympic. It is a final decision and no discussion is needed.

President Bush is doing a fine job as our president during the last 3+ years and will be our president for the next 4 years. Also no discussion needed just cast your
vote on November.

Why are we attacking our selves during this difficult time when we need to united and fight our enemies � Isamic Terrorists. 19 people killed themselves plus 3000+ American citizens in our own land and we blaim our president
For that incident not the 19 crazy individuals. Paul Hamm won the Gold and did not cheat or alter the score and it was unsportmanship of him to not giving his gold medal to his losing competitor who never beat him in any international
competition. And the action of SK, Yang Tae-young and IGF were so nobel. Americans, stop blaiming ourselves for everything.
We are who we are. In my opinion, this is the best countries in the whole world and if you can find a better place please move there and leave us alone.

40 years ago a famous young man said, �And so, my fellow Americans... ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.�

How many of you remember the name of that famous
Young man. And what have we learn from that famous quote.

You guys are all stupid, President Bush is not a bad president at all and paul hamm is not being selfish you guys dont even know what's going through his or mind or what he's feeling at all.

Anyone know how I can contact the author of this article (jsmooth995)? Please send me his name and address to Tpb@aol.com

T

Dear heatherjones16-
I think the person who is ignorant here is clearly you. No matter what mistake Paul made on the vault he did plenty and then some to make up for it. And you tell me, have you made a mistake before? Well you'd be lying if you said no because everyone messes up. Paul was the best gymnast at these games and he proved it by being brave enough and strong enough to win after that fall. So if you want to rant and rave about how he should give back his medal like all those other jackasses out there then go a head. I'll tell you one thing Paul is a lot better person then you, he hasn't attacked anyone for their critizim, no matter how bad it was. But you're attaking him because he made a mistake and then one of the best comebacks in gymnastics history? i mean come on that's mature.

I totally agree with you michelle.

And Kathleen, I think Paul's cute to, but don't hurt yourself.

i was wondering, does paul(hottie)hamm have a girlfriend? if he does i want to kill her.
paul is so hot i just want to kiss him.
u rock paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i am so in love with you!!!

Hi Hotchic

I believed as of May 2004 neither Paul nor Morgan has a girlfriend but we can check it out and ask Paul personally by your self. Here is the link to their official website:
www.hammtwins.com

And I cut/paste the following stat jus for our readers:

Hometown: Waukesha, WI
Residence: Waukesha, WI
Birth Date/Place: September 24, 1982 / Washburn, WI
Club: Ohio State University
Coaches: Miles Avery, Arnold Kventenadze & Doug Stibel
High School: Waukesha South
University: Ohio State University
Year in School: Sophomore
Favorite Event: All
Hobbies: Playing tennis
Began Gymnastics: 1989
Best Events: Pommel Horse
Height: 5'6"
Weight: 137 lbs
Years on Sr. National Team: 4
Years on Jr. National Team: 4

Best Finishes:
2nd Team at 2003 World Championships
1st All Around, Floor Exercise at 2003 World Championships
1st All Around at 2003 U.S. Gymnastics Championships
3rd Floor Exercise at 2002 World Championships
1st All Around, Pommels, and Vault at the 2002 US National Championships
7th All Around at the 2001 World Championships
2nd Team at the 2001 World Championships
14th All-Around at the 2000 Olympic Games
2nd in All-Around at 2000 U.S. Olympic Trials (114.125)
1st in Pommel Horse (9.850) at 2000 U.S. Olympic Trails
11th in All-Around at 1999 U.S. Gymnastics Championships
3rd in All-Around at 2000 U.S. Gymnastics Championships (112.925)

Fun Facts:
- Paul enjoys playing tennis, cards, chess, and a German game called Sheepshead.
- Paul was the first American Male to win a World Championship All Around Title

And Paul, congratulations for a job well done. We wish you the best and it would make my day if you send Yang Tae-young a letter to give him one last chance to compete with you on all 6 events to let him know he did not deserve any medal at all. decide once and for And I bet you no body is going to put money on his side.

Go Paul

Yes, Paul does have a girlfriend of five months or so. In fact, there's a photo of her somewhere online. I forget where it is. LOL, I'll even post the story here. She's a gymnast at Ohio State, where he trains, and they apparently met on the street. She recognized him and approached him. Then, I guess, they started dating.

Do NOT ask me how I know that. Ok, I read it online.

I have to agree with the vast majority here. Though I only watched the second half of his all-around competition (i.e. events 4-6), I've heard that his first three events were friggin awesome. I don't know which place he held before his awful fall into the judges' table, but I do know that it broke my heart to see his hope falter like that. I could tell that he thought he was done for. I also remember wanting to SCREAM when he kicked major butt in his last two events, propelling him from 12th to 4th and, lastly, to 1st place. My favorite image is still of his disbelief as his coach hugged him. There is no doubt in my mind that he deserves this medal, and, as far as I can tell, I am informed of all of the facts. Excuse me if I'm reiterating everything that has already been stated on this page, but Yang Tae-Young was given 0.10 MORE than he deserved. -0.10 + 0.20 = 0.10. EXTRA. Still with the bronze. Interesting. I also understand that it was illegal to view the tapes after the competition had ended, but try and understand it this way: My friend's parents were getting a divorce, and they were in court for quite a few weeks. Eventually, tapes were brought forward of phone conversations carried out between her parents. These informative tapes proved many points that awarded her mother custody. The taping of any conversation without consent is illegal in America, but it can also be used as valid, useful proof in a court of law. The illegal aspects of the tapes are overlooked under severe circumstances. (I know that a lot of you like to argue about relevance. I realize that a trial is not like a gymnastics competition, but this is an analogy. Analogies compare two things that are otherwise unlike each other. Think "SAT"s.) Although this deals with rules of US law, Paul's case deals with rules of the Olympic Games. The viewing itself may have been illegal, but it brought forth proof of other illegal actions that held more potency than the viewing itself. These illegal actions were the fault of the judges. Is Paul to blame for Yang's scoring mishaps? No. Is Yang to blame for his scoring mishap? Not to my knowledge, except for that claim about his sudden change in the routine. Is Yang to blame for holding more times than allowed? Yes, but it happens all the time!!! I just don't understand why this is a huge deal. Yeah, Paul's performance has made me a huge fan. I love talking about it. I also learned a lot about the rules this year because of the Olympic Games. I think that his comeback was amazing (history making!), and I also think that the scoring mishap was unfortunate. But Yang's score discrepency is of only one-tenth (extra) of a point. Doesn't this happen all the time? One-tenth? That's the smallest denomination of a demerit available to the judges. While I do think that the judges are at fault here, I also agree with Paul on this one: why weren't judges sanctioned earlier for other problems? I do sympathize with Yang, just as Paul so humbly does, but I also wonder why he has raised the question of point distribution when he has a higher score than he should. Blah. SO complicated, yet so simple. My advice? Just follow the rules. Everybody comes out even, as far as I'm concerned.

P.S. I'm proud of Paul for sticking it out through this controversy. Why would he be a hero for giving up his medal? He's not in it for the fame and fortune. He isn't going to do whatever makes a certain quota of the masses more proud of him. He coveted that medal with every fiber of his being. He won that medal. He's keeping that medal. Like he said on an early morning radio show, "I'm hoping that...as time passes and everyone gets all the information that...what they will remember is...the comeback that I had and the stuck dismount on that last event to become the Olympic champion, and not this whole controversy." All argument aside, he did a great job on that highbar. Go Paul.

Hi Kristin.

I agreed with 99% with your post but your first statement. If you are his girlfriend then the issue is closed other than that one of you need to send that question directly to Paul at the following address:
Ohio State University
Mens Gymnastics
C/O Paul and Morgan Hamm
410 Woody Hayes SE Tower
Columbus, OH 43210

By the way I check his official site and last update was Sept 11, 2004 and he still said he has no girl friend but he is current dating.

Have a pleasant day to all Paul fans and for the one who is still confused and disagree have a thinking day.

proof:

http://www.nbcolympics.com/wcmh/5044121/detail.html

Gee, give the kid a break, he went out there, did the best he could do at that particular time, and came out with a gold. Just think if it was you, would you give it up? Also-- it turns out that if another deduction would have been taken, Yang Tae-Young would have found himself in 4th place, without a medal at all.

Kristin:

Paul and Morgan was asked that very same question and here is there answer officially in their official site.

But thank you for give us the link to another article.

Question: Do you guys have girlfriends? - Elizabeth
M: I do not have a girlfriend at the present time.
P: There is a girl I date sometimes. I don't think you could call her my girlfriend, though.

http://www.hammtwins.com/questions3.html

See ya

Yeah, I read that too. I always look at hammtwins.com. It's a good site. I guess we can't tell which one is correct. All the sites say different things. Oh, well. It's not like it matters anyway. I'm not exactly going to ask him out, lol.

thanks tam nguyen, even though i've heard some conflicting views on the subject of paul's girlfriend. i guess i'm just going to have to settle with the fact that he goes out with a girl sometimes but their more friends.
so thanks everyone for the info.
i love you paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok

1. Hamm is not a loser, whoever thinks he is, is justy jealous because he is gold medalist and he deserves it, and they know they can never do something as spectatcular as him.

2. He deserved the medal fair & square

yeah read that and weap !!

Hi Alicia,
I just want to say that I agree with you 100%. Keep up the good work!
And hotchic you sound scary in your first post!
I wouldn't want to be Paul's girlfriend if I knew you! (Well I guess I actually would, but you get my point).
Last of all I just want to say again, I can't say it enough, that Paul totally deserves his medal and that everyone should agree. I really don't see how anyone couldn't.
Bye for now.
Luv ya paul!!

Paul Hamm did absolutley nothing wrong, he tried his hardest. All he is expected to do is he best, and obviously he did. If the judges make a mistake it should not be a burden on Paul's shoulders.
Wake up, smell the coffee, and realize it isn't Paul's fault at all.

it's the judges who messed up - they're supposed to be experts!

whether or not paul should give up the medal is open to interpretation. so far he is within his rights to keep it.

Paul and Morgan both have girlfriends there is a new chat they both participated in on the 15th of September 2004 it can be found on their website under articles here is the girlfriend part

Q: Kelly of Charolette, NC - Do either of you have girlfriends?
A: Paul - Yes. Both Morgan (Megan) and I (Lauren) have girlfriends.

The only thing that none of you mentioned, and that gets ignored in the media as well, is that even though Yang was judged as having a start value of 9.9 on parallel bars in the men's all around final, he received a HIGHER score on the event than he received on that event in the first two rounds of competition. In preliminaries and men's team final, Yang was judged with a start value of 10 on parallel bars, but received scores of 9.587 and 9.687, both lower than the score he received in the all around final.

So when Yang and his coach saw his score come up, and it was better than he received in the previous two rounds and the start value was 9.9, they must have been a bit confused but didn't want to point it out because if the judges re-evaluated the performance they may have found other deductions that Yang and the coach, as Olympic competitors, certainly knew were there. (And that all of us now know were there. Athletes and coaches know what the mandatory deductions are!)

Paul Hamm, the World All Around Champion, was so far behind, they didn't consider him a factor. With him seemingly out of the picture, they just went merrily on to the next event with a score on parallel bars that they felt was fair and advantageous, regardless of how it was arrived at.

When Paul Hamm surpassed everyone, the Koreans, as David Letterman put it, "went home and sobered up." They tried whatever they could after the competition, outside the rules of the game, to take away Paul Hamm's rightfully won medal. That shouldn't surprise anyone because they didn't follow the rules during the competition because it wasn't to their advantage. They are still trying, by taking this to the CAS, a body that doesn't review issues of field of play.

There is no confusion here. Paul Hamm is the rightful gold medal winner. Yang is not. Paul and his coaches have played by the rules. Yang and the Koreans have not.

Paul Hamm will go down in history as the gymnast, the American, who played by the rules and never gave up, even in the face of misguided international pressure. At this point his adversaries, whether Koreans or Americans like jsmooth are just giving him opportunities to cement his legend.

Great point, Danny! You're right, I definitely hadn't thought of it from that angle before. Why WOULD Yang have argued the score if it was better than he expected, and ESPECIALLY if he didn't think Paul was a threat? This is probably the most insightful post I've read here.

Danny, Best posted I have read on this site. I have to agree with you that the Koreans messed up more then Paul and now they are being sore losers.

Now now children lets not blame each other. South Koreans arent all sore losers, Americans arent all egotistical bullies, judges arent all gay (except the dudes who gave me 2 on my AP exam).

Both Athletes did do thier best and it shouldn't matter who won gold or silver. I personally wouldm't have cared to give up the gold because I know that Im better. Do you remember who won Womens epee fencing in Sydney? Now people have made this whole thing a big issue and were gonna remember Paul Hamm as the guy who wouldnt give up his gold-in both good and bad ways. Its idiots like you who argue for a little bit of gold and give gray hairs to our athletes.

South Koreans thought they were cheated so they protested.(see we've already taught them American values) We would have done the same if we were told that France or Iraq stole our gold.

And remember Televsion in Korea is probably propagandizing lies. Just like how our Television is telling us football is like gymnastics.

--Lets not blame people, blame machines.--

Danny, thank you for your wonderful posts..thats the best i think ive heard heard on the issue. Paul will be going to the CAS on the 27th..wow.

MedivalMan,

So, basically, what you are saying is that we should all be more like you and put ourselves on pedestals, degrade the unwashed masses of "idiots," and sit on the fence. And you said that not ALL Americans are egotistical bullies. Unfortunately for you, that still leaves a few stragglers. Don't worry. You'll get them all eventually. ;)

Sounds like MedivalMan is unhappy that an overlooked fact that makes the protesting Koreans look less like victims is being brought to light. Hmm...

I have just gone through some of these posts. Granted, I have not read them all because I have a life, but nonetheless, I have a few bones to pick.

Lee, if you are going to post on a website that seems to be based in America, then learn correct English so we can understand what you are trying to say. Your intent might be different than what I am reading, but it sounds like you are verbalizing baseless claims that are rooted in anger towards Americans. Those are your problems, not Paul Hamm's.

MedivalMan, maybe you made a 2 on your AP test because you cannot even spell Medieval correctly. There are other crucial grammatical errors in your liberal "stick it to the man" post, so stop whining that you were judged unfairly on your AP test. Wait a minute...that is what you are claiming Paul is doing. Irony is funny, isn't it?

Danny and Andrew, thank you for your insights. Your posts prove that Paul is indeed the champion, regardless of political stance or stubborn attempts to skew the truth to prove otherwise.

People who bash George Bush...pull the stick out of your ass and go somewhere else. This is not a political forum, and Paul certainly has nothing to do with politics. Just because George Bush wears a cowboy hat does not make him stupid. I believe that public speaking (re: "form a coherent sentence") is not his strong suit, but that does not make him an incapable leader. I am from West Texas, so I will admit that I am SLIGHTLY biased, but I will also admit that I do have my problems with him as well. The point is, do not criticize him for things that have nothing to do with policymaking, and if you feel the urge to do so, go elsewhere...maybe South Korea.

And for those people who are going to base Paul's position on whether he deserves the medal on things other than Gymnastics and its rules, you can join them.

In addition, there have been some items overlooked in regard to Paul's twin brother, Morgan. He also performed on high bar in the event finals, and he tied for the second best score. Because Paul tied for first and lost the tie breaker, the tie for the second best score was pushed to contention for the bronze medal. Unfortunately, Morgan lost the tie breaker there as well, and finished fourth overall, even though he had the second best score. He also performs at this level in spite of a devastating nerve injury in his shoulder that will compromise his performance for the rest of his life. So do not try to make the claim that judges and officials favor Americans. I find it odd that the one time in modern Olympic history that an American wins this event, people pitch a fit that we are favored. Both Paul Hamm and Carly Patterson are being criticized for their wins (Paul more than Carly), but in light of the 99% of gymnastics that is not the all around competition, we are not favored.

I must agree about the Bush thing, but I also read the article. Bush is definitely mentioned there, and this discussion is...well...about the article.

Paul Hamm deserves this medal 200% AND YOU PPL should not tear him down. he's a kid doing the RIGHT thing- and you mean ppl writing biased articles should get the heck off the internet.
yang taeyoung should have been in 4th or even 5th place--he did 4 holds in p-bars and the maximum is 3- if you have more, you have to get a mandatory 2-TENTH deduction. anyway, even if paul hamm didnt win legitimately, you should support him. he's american. and your reference to Bush was very RUDE. dont you have any respect 4 your president?? i say--4 more years!!

As a final note:::: PAUL HAMM IS A CUTIE AND HE DESERVED THE GOLD!!!

Hey miss hamm, I agree with you totally. I don't understand how people would criticize Paul or the president. I think they both did a good job. And I do think Bush should be re elected, totally. I mean what would Clinton have done if he had been in Bush's situation with Iraq? I tell you what he would have done, nothing! He was too busy knocking up Monica Lewinsky in the Oval Office! I mean come on!
And how could anyone could not support Paul? He's done nothing but show his strength as an atlete and a person. He's shown us what real sportsmanship is. It's not giving away your medal the minute some one call's foul, it's making sure the right person gets the right reward. And he was the right person to get the gold. He did a great job in Athens and I'm looking forward to seeing him in Beijing, winning gold again. And hopefully he'll get it without any controversy.
So to everyone who agrees with me, keep up the good work!
I love you Paul!!!(and you're really hot!).

Do you see Hamm on any Wheaties box? Any endorsements from a Fortune 500 company? Boys and girls THINK about that for just a minute. The irreversible damage has already been done whether Paul or anyone else likes it or not. Our own corporations -- McDonalds, General Mills, Nike, avoid this great athlete like the newly resistant form of TB. Paul was awarded the gold and due to judging errors his gold is worth much much less and the other athletes were deprived of their glory. Everyone got screwed.
End of story. Now go out and vote in November so that we can take out the trash in the White House and put into our office a real leader - John Kerry. PEACE~~

A leader who is notorious for flip-flopping on issues and whose own troops who served with him in Vietnam won't endorse him? Great leader. Leave the politics out of it.
Kristen, you have a point. However, I do not think Bush should have been mentioned in the original article.
Paul AND Morgan deserve all the attention they are getting, and I think they are too good for the Wheaties box. Its not even good cereal anyway.

Sigh..

I won't get more into politics here because frankly I don't have the TIME to teach American History 101 to someone somewhere over the Bushwack lala land.

And an athlete getting on the Wheaties box has NOTHING to do with how GOOD a cereal is. It's all about the $$$$ and Hamm is NOT seeing it like the other U.S gold medalist.

On a final note: ANYONE would be better than BUSH at this point. Kerry has my vote of confidence. Oh did you see that recent beheading of another U.S hostage in Iraq? I'm sure Armstrong's family loves BUSH's leadership to death (no pun intended).

Dethrone Bush,
I am not trying to get confrontational, so please do not think I am attacking you.
But where is Kerry in US History? The election is not rooted in history but in current events. As far as Iraq goes, Bush was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. If he hadn't decided to send troops to Iraq, he would have been just as criticized for failing to do what his father failed to do.
The whole Wheaties thing was just a joke. I know he is not getting endorsements because of the controversy. I have emailed the PR person for General Mills stating that I feel he should be included in the all-star lineup, but when things are this unfair you have to have a sense of humor about it.
I am not as mean as I sound on these posts, but when people mess with the Hamms or Bush, I get agitated. Like I mentioned before, I have my problems with Bush too. I just don't think they belong here.

I had intended to post before the conversation turned into a political debate on the strengths (or lack thereof) of George W. Bush's presidency, but it looks like I'm too late. I STILL don't understand what Bush or Kerry or whoever have to do with this entire controversy - can't we just leave it aside once and for all? Yes, I know jsmooth995 was the one who brought up the subject, but I think that intelligent people will quickly realize that supporting/opposing Paul Hamm's AA gold has absolutely no relation to supporting/opposing Bush. I cheered for a number of Russian athletes in the Olympics - but that doesn't mean that I in any way approve of Vladimir Putin.

If you have strong opinions on the matter (which I do, but I don't see their relevance to this discussion), go post on the New York Times or some similar forum.

Let me make some poinst that are actually pertinent to the discussion:

- Danny's post was brilliant. Some one has yet to post a response that addresses his arguments.

- DethroneBush, I'm not sure where you stand on this issue. Nonetheless, you are correct in that the controversy has hurt Paul's marketibility. I know plenty of people who would never actually eat Wheaties but would end up buying them by the carload if the box had Paul's picture on it - but perhaps General Mills has different statistics. Paul could have easily handed back the medal (not that it would have changed standings officially, but let's leave that aside) and pocketed millions in endorsements. Instead, he has chosen to abide by the rules and regulations of his sport - and he has paid the price for it because there is nothing more that the media likes to do than to criticize people and comment on situations about which it knows next to nothing. All of this demonstrates that Paul was never in gymnastics because of the money but because of his love for and dedication to the sport.

Through all of this, Paul has retained his dignity and integrity - which are much more important than a Wheaties box.

- A number of people have made excellent posts explaining why Paul is - and deserves to be - the AA champion. I won't repeat them, but I will reiterate the fact that the judges made the mistake in SV - NOT Paul. I don't understand why people are still calling on him to fix the mistake and blaming him because he has not.

Acutally, I think Iraq was a costly mistake - it is too hard to implant a pro-american democracy there. Right now, according to the news, terrorists are pouring in and the country may slip into civil war - maybe they should let it split up into smaller countries. Anyway, the war was a plan floated by neo-conservatives and capitalists (they should have just stuck to Afghanistan), but now it's done, and I guess we have to finish the job, or step up national security here or else we really will be attacked again - this time by terrorists from Iraq instead of Afghanistan. I admit being president is tough, and there are so many things you can't control.

About Wheaties, General Mills probably just didn't want to take the risk on Paul. I personally probably wouldn't cling to it unless I thought I truly won by a fair margin, but whatever he wants to do is his choice - I guess he believes he won. The judges are weak though. Anyone have Yang's performance on quicktime? I'd like to see it so I can make up my mind!

Paul is cute in a boy next door way! Aaawww.

I liked his routines but am interested in Yang Tae-Young's as well. Grateful if anyone could post it or email it to me [allegretta@gmail.com] in quicktime format.

hi Mirinda, are u sure paul has a girlfriend. if he does that sucks.
and Danny i want to say that i just read ur post and i thought it was great. i totally agree, i mean it makes perfect sense, the koreans were the sore losers and intentially "cheated". i haven't heard that view before, so thanks for sharing. also i saw the replays of yang's performance, but didn't actually see his performance either. anyone know where to find it?
and i agree with you Giselle that paul retained his integrity and his dignity, who cares about a Wheaties box? or what anyone else thinks in the first place, he had to do what he thought was right, and i for one think he made the right discision.
anyway thanks for listening.
i luv ya paul. and i always will!!!!!!!!! ;-)

p.s. happy b-day on friday paul!!!!!!! luv ya even more!!! ;-)

How about the Japanese monster box jumping championship that Morgan won? I'd really like to see that!

NAJBOLJI SI SILA SI

Here's a question to ponder: what if the biggest mistake made was Bruno Grandi's decisioin to suspend the three judges? I wonder whether their 9.9 start value should stand. I read that a lot goes into determining the start value... not just the routine intended to be done on paper, but the routine that was actually performed. An example of this would be Brett McClure's rings routine where it was intended that he do an iron cross, but since his shoulders didn't get low enough, that move was considered to be a less difficult move (I forget the name), and so he got a lower start value.

The two judges that came up with the start value on Young's routine were in agreement, which is why their superior did not step in to review the decision. Could it be that they were actually right in assigning their start value, based on their observations on the routine that was actually performed, and not the routine that was intended to be performed? Really, the FIG should have adhered the rules and not tried to break them after the fact by going to video. While judges make mistakes (though maybe not in this case???), it is as ludicrous to go back and overrule the judges, as it is for judges to be pressured by a booing crowd to change a score. As imperfect a system it is because of the human error aspect, it IS the system that is in place. And unless that changes, the judges decisions should be final.

Viv,
Interesting. So that means the judging is very complex with room for subjectivity and ambiguity, i see. That's not to take away from sport, I'll still watch in Beijing :-)

Anyone know where I can get an olympic video/DVD?

ps: I do understand the importance of rules and precedents. Technically FIG is breaking it's own rules ... there is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. I'm sure both were great, although I didn't see the whole thing!

Hi Viv, you make an interesting point, you're right that the judges are subject to human error. I don't think anyone really talked to those judges to see why they did what they did, they just fired them.
I think everyone behind all of these discisions is pretty stupid, the only thing they have succeded in proving is that they are unable to keep their own rules, and very unprofessional and unorganized. They didn't prove that Paul should have givin his medal back, in fact they did just the opposite.
And how about them writing a letter to "pressure" Paul into giving back his medal, it's their responsibility to make a discision. If I were Paul I would hide that medal and never give it back no matter what they said. But I guess Paul is a nicer person than me!
Danny, I read your post after seeing all the praise it got in this site and others, and I thought it was really good too. I would like to see some one respond to it(I can't, I totally agree with you!) but I don't think anyone can.
Also I ahven't seen many new non-Paul supporters in these posts.
Have a good rest of the week Paul fans!

Hi im a non-paul supporter....bash me down
The world is just angry at how strong america is now since they could see it reflected in the olympics as well as everything else.
(But personally i think Japan is secretly taking over the world.again)
and yes i suck at english. Medieval men dont know proper english. Thats why i had to read danny's post three times to understand what he was saying; and im downright furious that the South Korean Protestors's unvictiminess is being brought to light.
Go George Bush

Hi MedivalMan,
I don't think it should matter whether the athelete comes from a big or small country. Whoever wins fairly wins.
But as Danny pointed out, if the South Koreans are only trying to enforce the rules when it suits them, that's not good either. Can that be proven?
And finally, what exactly is a non-Paul supporter?

It's pathetic to see how so many Americans can't see the difference between American PRIDE and American SELFISHNESS. Lately, American has become the land of never giving in and never admitting that they are wrong. Is it any wonder why the rest of the world hates us??? And don't tell me it's because we are number one because only 3rd world countries see America as #1. Countries like France, Spain, South Korea, Canada, and Japan are living quite comfortably and the majority of them would never want to live in America. After this Olympic scandal, I am really embarrassed to call myself an American. It's amazing to hear all these Americans being so selfish after reading this article for what it's worth. This article is only trying to explain what was the right thing to do and how much more Paul Hamm would have been respected for "doing the right thing". Please don't sit there and tell me that what Paul Hamm did was the right thing and not the selfish thing. It's starting to become a joke. If he did the right thing, there wouldn't still be debates over this whole ordeal. Thank you.
*OH, and this was a scandal. Don't you know that one of the judges worked in the same gym that Paul Hamm did??? He should have never been a judge period.

Oh and the only reason America is "strong" is because of all the black athletes, latino athletes and other non-white athletes that represent America. Believe me when I tell you, people are smarter than you think. Nobody is angry at how strong America is.
btw, please have some valid points and try to make some sense when you guys try to make a point. It's pathetic how uneducated so many Americans are.

you made some great points SelfishAmerican.

I just want to know why it's so easy for America to blame others and nitpick at their mistakes while completely ignoring their own mistakes. Can anyone tell me??? Honestly, you guys do realize that the Koreans DID tell the judges before the event was over that their was a scoring problem but the American influenced judges told them to wait until the event was over right??? How was the judge American influenced??? Well, one of the judges worked at the same gym that Paul Hamm trained at (SelfishAmerican pointed that out earlier). And the presiding judge was well... AMERICAN. So the 3 judges getting suspended was pretty mild punishment actually. I mean, if the judge messes up, gets suspended, and it's publicly announced that the judges messed up, then shouldn't the Koreans get awarded a gold if the points add up??? isn't that logically the RIGHT thing to do??? I can't believe this is even a debate. It's so pathetic. If America was in Korea's shoes, then they would go crazy over this. And yes, America has been in similar situations and they have gone crazy and the IOC listened and made compensations for it before. It's just that Korea is a small country. that's all.

for all you idiots out there who keep talking about the fact that once a judge makes a call in sports, it's over, please get off it. We all know that, YES, if the judge makes a call in most sports the call stands. BUT that's regarding plays. Whether someone dropped the ball or not, whether he was fouled or not, etc. If a scoring mistake is made, EVERYONE knows in sports that the score is changed back to the score it was suppose to be. IF the Dodgers lose to the Padres in baseball 8-9 and later finds out (either during or right after the event was over) that the score should have been 9-8 in favor of the Dodgers, OF COURSE the score would be changed and the Dodgers would win(of course scoring mistakes like this would never happen and it should have never happenned in the Olympics either... I mean really, MISTAKE??? what a joke. I smell a shady Columbian judge from Paul Hamm's gym and a pathetic American judge not doing the RIGHT thing by fixing the mistake). Please, come up with a better argument next time. What a joke...

Ok, I have tried to stay calm on this issue. I have sat and watched this forum since the first posting. Let me start off by saying that I am an avid Olympian watcher! I am very invloved in sports, I am a volley-ball coach, I downhill ski competatively, I play tennis for my college team, I coach basketball, and I am a former gymnast. And jsut for the record, the only reason I quit gymnastics is because I am 6 foot tall and they cant raise the bars.
It is apparent that all of you who think Paul needs to give back his medal have never been involved in sports. Especially gymnastics. It is ILLEGAL to review tapes in a meet. Its pointless to have them there. I think they should use the tapes, but is is clearly illegal. 2ndly, the Korean cry-baby is the only tape they reviewed. Oh...need I say AFTER THE MEET!!!!! If you want to illegaly review tapes, then by all means review them ALL! Who is to say there werent MORe judging mistakes, then the one that Korea themselves didnt even notice until all is done and said. 3rdly, it is now COMMON knowledge that the Korean cry-baby wouldnt have won anyway. He didnt have enough releases. 4thly, the rules clearly state that NO complaints or challenges can be filed AFTER the meet!!!!! Not to mention 5thly, that Korea is in charge of notifiying the judge of THERE OWN START VALUE!!!!!! From that, the judge can raise the value, but not lower it. So where does that put the blame? At the stinkin feet of those stinkin Koreans.
As far as a second gold goes, you have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! it was a crock when we did it with Russia and its a crock now. And for whoever thinks Paul should give it back, you are outside your mind. Not one of us would do it. Is he at a higher standard, being an Olympian? Maybe. Give up something he won? Nah! Its part of the game. Paul himself was quoted saying he would have given the medal up gladly had it been discovered before the meet ended. (which is legal by the way). So, to Paul I would say, you rock. That is perhaps one of the biggest comebacks in American History of Sports. He is an incredible athlete, and we, as a country ought to be standing behind out athletes.
And for the loser who put the tie between G.W. Bush and Paul, you really need to get day job. Honestly, how do you get off calling yourself American??

I agree with SelfishAmerican that sometimes Americans can cross the line and go from patriotic to obnoxious.

In this case, I'd be interested in seeing a replay of Paul and Yang's performances before I can form an opinion, regardless of what FIG and CAS decide. So there are two separate issues here. First, who actually did better that day (somewhat subjective) and second, what FIG and CAS and all of their rules come up with.

To loser,
thats just what you are. Seriously. Yes, my bad, the Korean coach, (aka loser), DID notify the judges, but ALL he did was say he THOUGHT there was an error, but he couldnt come up with a valid reason to review tapes. (which is illegal). With out an exact reason, was there a need to review? especially when you consider its illegal? Ummm..NO!

hey Hannah, Korea did notify the judges. Why do you act like you know exactly how everything happenned during the event??? Please get off your high horse. And this is regarding scoring, not the judging of the actual gymnast's routine. So, it's not the same thing. And stop talking smack about others. Crybaby Koreans??? are you kidding me? It's Americans like you that I abhore. It's Americans like you that I am embarrassed to be associated with. Please, make your point but don't talk shiet.

Hey Hanah, for the last time... STFU. Your starting to get annoying. Stop acting like a selfish little bitch and stop talking smack. It's really pathetic. really.

hi, it's me the ponderer! it's funny, everyone misinterpreted my post. what i was trying to say was that these atheletes are only human and we can't expect them to be saintly.

Loser,
if you followed the games you would know what happened. its unfortunate peeps like you cant see something so clear. Such as the difference, or lack thereof, between scoring and judging.
just curious, have you ever done gymnastics? If you had, them maybe you would be clear on the rules, instead of some hick nobody pretending to know what your talking about. Crybaby Koreans, is there a better term for how they handled themselves? I could think of a few. Nothing I want to type though.

you overgrown idiot HANAH. If you persist to talk smack, then I'll have to cut down that overgrown attitude of yours. You act like you were ever an athlete. HAHAHA. go back to being a selfish, overgrown American. 6 feet tall huh? your probably 6 feet wide too.

it's so funny to argue with you. Even as a 15 year old, I can see how wrong you are and how selfish you are. You are the type of American I will never want to be when I grow up.

Hanah, it's sad how selfish Americans are becoming. It's sad how Americans like you, HANAH, like to poke fun and call others name. And a hick??? Um, I'm from San Diego. My family grew up in San Diego too. And where are you from? and what do you do? other then waste your adult life talking shit on a message board.

Loser,
yes you have made it OBVIOUS you are no older them 15. This has nothing to do with you. Its about the issues of Paul Hamm and gymnastics. Can we please stick to the issues and off of the Jr. High mentality of, "Oh, she offended me, I'm going to attack her athletecism." It reminds me of my jr high years when you kicked boys you liked.
Why dont you go cry to your mom, and leave the real debating and COMPREHENSION to the adults honey.
As far as 6 feet wide, grow up. Seriously. There is no way I can make you believe I am that involved in sports. I guess I need a good reason to lie about something so insignificant huh?
And for the remark about, "cut you dowm"..ok. Phycho.

I do purchasing for a large coperation located in Detroit. When I am not at work, I am at school, coaching, or training. Thats what I do. What about yourself?

your such a joke. you were the one who talked shiet about others instead of sticking to the actual issue at hand. now all of a sudden, you're trying to act all mature? what a joke. I'm so glad I'll never grow up to be a selfish, mean, old, pathetic loser like you. Hanah you are the definition of a loser. bye.

"coperation" huh??? HAHAHAHAHA.

You know, I have been called alot of things.but never selfish. Everything I do, other then my training, I do for someone else. Mean, never been called that either. I work with teens and kids nearly every day. And I deal with adults at work, hard to be mean when you build your life around people. Pathetic loser? Because I disagree with you, I am a pathetic loser? Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

Yeah, spelling error. My bad. corperation.

Oh and what do I do? Well, I'm a straight A student in high school. I'm a varsity football and a varsity basketball player for my high school as well. Oh and did I tell you, I'm most likely going to go to UCLA unless something devastating happens to me (like say... turn into someone like you!). later...>

devastating, as in become a coach in 3 sports, compete at college level in two, and nation level in one? yeah, sounds pretty bad.

Straight a student? Thats great. And that also makes 2 of us.

hey LIAR (HANAH). My excuse is that I don't start high school until the 27th. Don't you have a job or something??? WORK? your unemployed huh? haha.

Good grief. Does anybody have a balanced view anymore? It's like you only have 2 choices on what to be, a rabid American or what Lenin calls a "useful idiot" - which is somebody who is so yielding he winds up furthering his adversary's goals.

People should look inside themselves and do what is fair to them, while still considering others. Is that so hard?

No actually I am on break right now. If you scrolled up you would read where I told you my job. I am a purchasing supervisor at a CORPERATION in detroit, where I am at right now. I am on a break .Thats what happens when you work and make something of yourself, you get breaks. Oh...did i also mention I attend college 16 hours a week, on top of coaching, working, and training? Do you also want a break down of every hour? In case you do, I train 4 hours a day, every day. Depends on the season on which sport I am in training. Currently, I am only in two, tennis and starting skiing. I coach volleyball mon-thursday, 2 hours a day. thursday and friday is basketball coaching.Add to that my 16 school hours, and 40 hours of work. anything else I forgot?

oh yeah, add to that family time.

Allegretta,
You know, I agree. Although it is hard when someone attacks your character to sit by and let it happen, much less try to be mature. I obviously failed in this situation, but dealing with a 15 year old know it all can get to someone. Especially when you know what your talking about, and all the other can do is call everything you worked so hard to acheive lies.

Hi Hannah,
It happens to a lot of us at some point. Things can get tough but it's best to stay positive. Hope your day is going better now :-)

Alegretta,
Actually, after pondering your advice, I really am feeling loads better. A hectic schedule always leaves one venting on someone. Unfortuantly he had to be a 15 year old kid, but I swear if my kid ever acts like there will be SEVERE consequences.
Thanx

Non-paul supporter- by my defenition should be the people in america who are ashamed of how Paul Hamm reacted in representation of our country regardless of the fact that he was the best gymnast.
There are many kids just like Loser who saw it from that perspective. Im not anyone special to tell you this,like a coach of theree teams, but when i watched paul hamm react to this controversy; something felt unrighteous. I cant pinpoint it but it did bother me that he was an american. Of course at the time i was completely misinformed about everything, since i didnt have the time to watch any of the men's gymnastics and since im too poor to afford cable tv. I did want to watch it since i was a breakdancer.
As of now i do believe paul hamm deserves gold as much as he claims he does but there was something wrong with the way the media depicted. It made it seem as if they were hiding something by never showing hamm's routine while criticizing the korean's four holds repetitively while comparing gymnastic rules to football. Something just doesnt seem right if they show it like that.
I am a non-paul supporter not because he won gold but because he decided to claim he was the alrighteous champion. Not many of us could humbled ourselves and done any better so i guess i dont have the right to blame it all on paul.

I think I know what you are saying, MedivalMan. Some of us like to see a bit of humility in a person, while others are drawn to proud confident types. I usually like people who can laugh at themselves and are down to earth, so I know what you are saying I think.

However, I think I sort of know where Paul might be coming from. It's like when you are good at something and you work really hard at it, you start to think that you truly are the best, not because you are trying to be arrogant, but because you can back it up.

But the fact is, at the Olympic level, several of the atheletes could have been the best, depending on whether they were having a good or bad day. Maybe if he really was the super-duper most best, the media wouldn't have hesitated to play both routines side by side for everyone to see. Who knows, right?

ps: i know next to nothing about gymnastics. i would only be able to decide who i personally liked better!

MedivalMan,
I understand what you are saying, and I can even agree to a certain extent. I know as for the rest of my family, they saw it from your perspective, that Paul did deserve the gold, but something seemed unrighteous. I think you all know how I saw it. The fact it, something WAS wrong. The whole thing was wrong from the beginning. Judges should have noticed, and the S. Koreans should have noticed as well. (for Loser, YES I know the S.K. did notice, but he didnt know why, he just knew the score was off.So when I say he should have noticed, he should be keeping track of his players scores.)Its just all too unfortunate the best male gymnast's name had to get marred. From now on, Paul Hamm's name will forever be tied with the fact that he "didnt realy win the gold". (despite the rules and illegality of it).

Allegretta, if you are still looking for an Olympic gymnastics DVD, my husband ordered one right after the competition, and we just received it. We love it. He might have ordered it from NBColympics.com. Or you might check USOC's site. If you have trouble let me know... I'll ask him.

No, hmmm, I was not making reference to athletes and their ability to be saintly: none of us is able to do that. I was stating that while it is interesting to debate who should have won or lost in an artistic sport, we don't have the luxury of determining the winner. That decision can only be made within the context of the competition, within the parameters of the pre-existing rules. This does not compare with sports that allow for reviewing tapes after the game, because gymnastics rules forbid it. The judges decisions, therefore, are final. You can go back and read all the details in the previous posts.

As far as people's ill feelilngs about how Paul handled the situation, I would guess that you did not watch the Olympics or his first interviews. He had just been crowned with Olympic gold, and was hearing from the MEDIA for the FIRST TIME about the extent of this controversy. I would love to see any one else handle themselves on the spot, in the spotlight, without any mental preparation. That said, he handled himself beautifully: he was humble in the fact that he stated that he would give back the gold if FIG TOLD him to (which FIG did not do- Grandi could not change the rules after the fact. And if he could, the picture is not complete without taking into account Young's other mistake.) He was gracious in that he showed empathy for the South Korean gymnast. And he was justified in defending his well-earned gold because he knew and played by the rules. He also knew that if the tapes were going to be illegally reviewed, that they showed Young's error that was missed the first time around, which, I would imagine, would only solidify in his mind that he was indeed the deserving champion. Not to mention that Paul's performance and comeback were breath-taking. So I really fail to see what it is in Paul's actions that would make anyone anything other than proud to be associated with him as an American.

What concerns me is how people treat one another. The media attacked Paul's character without knowing the facts. Individuals posting on this site are name-calling and attacking each other. I guess you can call that American. Not just American, but human. I'm sure people all over the world do it. I am offended by the blanket statement that Americans are basically terrible. While I whole-heartedly support Paul, I have no ill-feelings toward South Korea (I have an adopted South Korean sister-in-law, and have been researching for the past year the possibility of adopting from that beautiful country). I would not call the South Koreans cry-babies. Paul certainly did not. And I am offended by those who pick on others about their grammar. I was an English Lit major, and while I didn't agree with Lee's position, I was upset for him that he was insulted for his grammar. I thought it took courage for him to post in a language that was not his first.

If you want to blame others for how America portrays itself, examine yourself. And all of these issues have no bearing on the fact that Paul won the gold, deserved the gold, showed excellent character in the competition, and showed excellent character and composure as an athlete and American after the competition.

Viv,
I guess I should clarify the "crybabies" statement. I was not referring to Koreans as a whole. I think that was taken out of context. Read the statement as a whole, I was referring to the gymnast, obviously not the country. I my self have a family member adopted for S.Korea. Your right, Paul didnt complaing about the S. Koreans, then again who could blame him if he chose to? The fact is, Paul handled this better then any of us woudl have.
So, I apologize if you took that as an offending remark about the county, that was not how I intended that to come across, nor is that how I feel.
This topic is so old. Is there anyone out there who even cares anymore? Pauls name has been drug through the mud, and it cant ever be clean. So lets move on, for his sake.

I was going to write this yesterday but when I tried it wouldn't go through so....This is what I wrote. Today *the 24th* is Paul and Morgan's 22nd birthday!!! Happy birthday you guys! Paul is awesome!! They are both cool. I am Paul's number one fan!!! God Bless!
-Melita Jo Veatch The First:-)
Psalm 32:8

P.S. Paul is keeping his gold medal that he won!!!

Thanks Viv,
I will check it out and let you know if you I can't find one.

Melita Jo,
I dont know if YOU are Paul's #1 fan, thats debatable!! :)
Happy Birthday to Paul and Morgan!

I see an awful lot of talk about the RULES, and precious little talk about HONOR. No wonder our country is allowing itself to become a police state under George Bush and the so-called Patriot Act. Children measure morality in black-and-white rules-based terms, but the mark of mature moral reasoning is to step past the rules and understand the essense of justice and fair play. Shame on Paul Hamm and the USOC for behaving not as champions, but as children.

We are stationed in South Korea with the US Army and we support you Paul. You deserve the medal and clearly shown that your skills and talent out shined the rest. From what I have experienced, South Koreans don't appreciate what our country has done for them and feel that they are better and more self sufficient than the USA. They are bitter people and need to accpet that you are the gold medalist and accept defeat.

Ok...first off, to "nomorefacists". Your speech was very eloquent. It was however also very base-less, in-informed, and in essence pointless. please dont misunderstand me, I am not in any way critisizing you. Consider this a debate.
You say there is alot of talk of rules and little of honor. Well, the point is rules. I understand that I may have just proved one of your points, which is along the lines of America being more interested in rules then honor. (Which I beg to differ.) I disagree, strongly. Consider this: Paul gives his medal away. S.K. gets there way. America loses. They later find out Paul would have won ANYways, due to the releases of the S.K. guy. Mind you, Paul has already given his medal away. How does America then come across? There of course would be those whoel fall into your category, who would say Paul did the "noble" thing. But what about Paul? What about the fact that he WON the gold,and he ended up giving it away for the sake of nobility. Dont you think he would be kicking himself, along with the rest of the U.S.? Do you not think we would say, "Hey, s.k. should give back that medal! Paul won that!"????????Or better yet, do you NOT think that we would say, "Hey, S.K. lost, he needs to be HONORABLE and give back the medal?" Not only that, but consider how Paul has been treating the issue. Paul has been nothing short of gracious, and thankful for his award. He has acted in a humble way, showing true sportsmanship. The only thing he has NOT done is give away the medal. He hasnt rubbed it in anyones faces, he hasnt bragged, boasted, or acted in a vain way whatsoever. No one can say he has. How is that for your honor and fair play?
Shame on Paul? For what exactly? For not giving away something? Now who is the immature child with underdevelpoed skills of black and white rules, dos and donts??

One more thing,
I am still trying to put the pieces together...where does G.W.Bush fit in with your statement?

please oh please hannah... why can't you just STFU and stop talking??? nobody wants to listen to your pea brain arguments. We are all sick and tired of your mouth and your prejudice ways. STFU HANNAH. It would make everyone that much happier. But we all know HANNAH doesn't care about anyone elses opinions expect for her own.

Hey Hannah, I've read everything you wrote and all of the arguments you had with (the appropriately named) loser. I just wanted to say that I'm 15 too and I'm really sorry about that. I hate it when uneducated jerks like him give teenagers a bad name. Some kids are just so immature and disrespectful, so again I'm so sorry about that. And I don't understand how anyone can not support Paul, just for the sake of how nice he is if nothing else.
Anyway I agree with you, totally, and you sound pretty cool. So keep up the good work!
Happy birthday Paul and Morgan!!! I was away so I didn't get to say that on Friday.
And Melita Jo, I'm Paul's #1 fan!!!;-)

P.S. loser you kept spelling shit wrong.

P.P.S STFUhannah I think you're the one who needs to be quiet, everyone here including Hannah is just writing their opinions. What's wrong with that? I mean sure I don't agree with everyone but I'm not angry at them for writing what they think is right. And Hannah didn't come across as selfish or self-righteous at all, she was actually pretty nice in her posts. So please keep your close mindedness to yourself from now on, and stop attacking people's opinions.

Wow... What a joke. People like Hannah are the ones that give Americans a bad name. I believe someone else stated that earlier. After reading all the previous postings, I must definitely agree with you on that one point at least.
Even after she called the Koreans "crybabies" (and VIV made it a point to express how wrong she was to unjustly label a group of people like that), she turns around and states how it was "taken out of context". It's amazing how some people, like Hannah, never admit when they are wrong. Is it any wonder why so many others (even people that live in America) dislike Americans??? Out of all the countries I have lived in, I find most excuses coming out of American's mouths. Sometimes, it's OK to say, I'm sorry or I was wrong. It's people like you Hannah that GIVE AMERICANS A BAD NAME. A bit of advice I'd like to give you Hannah --> Sometimes Hannah, it's better to stay quiet and look stupid, then to open your mouth and confirm that you are stupid. I'm sure YOU'VE heard that saying before. Stop letting everyone know how racist and stupid you really are by constantly opening your mouth and saying the wrong thing. And don't make it worse by acting like it was taken out of context.

And another thing, I'm half Caucasian and half Korean. Please don't assume that you know anything about being a Korean or knowing Koreans just because you also have an "adopted" family member. Adopting someone of a different race doesn't mean you know shit about that ethnicity. I have a lot of pride for being from both ethnic groups, but people like Hanah makes me want to think twice about what I'm proud of.

As for the gold medal, Paul Hamm got his gold. Yang Tae Young didn't get the gold even though he should have (YES, he should have gotten it BUT the judges messed up and his team's coach didn't pay attention and he messed up as well). That's that. Whether Paul's name got dragged around in the dirt, that's his fault for opening his mouth and stating that he would give the Gold back if they told him to. Because they basically did tell him to and he still didn't give it back. The South Korean team should have paid more attention to the scoring but they didn't. And that is why they are in this court hearing with Paul Hamm and only the courts can decide the future of what will happen with this stupid incident that should have never happenned in the first place. FACTS ARE FACTS. PLEASE STFU AND DEAL WITH IT. All the personal opinions coming out of your mouths (especially you Hannah) won't change anyone's mind or the results. If Paul Hamm keeps the Gold, he keeps the Gold. He will probably have an asterick next to his Gold in the history books but that's just how it is. SO again, DEAL WITH IT.

HEY ur clueless! U are clueless aren't you? Read, learn, educate yourself and THEN jump into a debate. 15 year old right? SO I thought I'd give you some advice. Your welcome.

now let the whole world laugh at the Americans and the greatest president

All the personal opinions coming out of your mouths (especially you Hannah) won't change anyone's mind. You are so right because all personal opinions coming from your mouth won't change my mind about how paul is the true owner of the gold!

Paul Hamm is a champion and he deserves the gold medal. It was given to him in an Official Ceremony and therefore will not be removed. If so the whole idea of the games could be compromised. Anyone from Waukesha, Wisconsin deserves Gold in my opion. You rule Paul! Good luck with all this crap about you giving it back.

"All the personal opinions coming out of your mouths (especially you Hannah) won't change anyone's mind."

You are so right because all personal opinions coming from your mouth won't change my mind about how paul is the true owner of the gold!

You all should just leave the kid alone. He won and thats it. Paul hang tough.

i agree with you guys: WaukeshaRules, john terase, and Jason. i feel that everyone is making a big deal out of nothing and obviously paul deserves the gold. simple, right? but no some people can't get it through their thick heads.
HEY STFUhannah! i don't recall asking you for advice or thanking you for it. so please don't make assumptions on what i need.
and yes i am 15, you got a problem with that? how old are you. you don't sound very mature however old you are. and YOU sound like the one with the need for education not me. you think paul shouldn't have won, why are you ignoring the fact that the korean dude had too many holds and would've had a LOWER score if the judging had been correct? i consider it a nice thing to let him keep the silver. and i don't have anything against koreans, just so you know.

another thing, i wouldn't care if everyone here disagreed with me, or if all my peers disagreed with me. i'm proud of my opinions, i'll stand up for them no matter what. most of all i'm proud of paul. for the way he performed and represented our country, and the way he's reacted to everything that's happened. i love you paul!

and by the way even if i'm only 15 i can still participate in a debate. and you can say whatever you want to say but you won't change this kid's mind!

P.S. you should read Danny's first post, it's very good and expresses all of my views. i just thought i'd mention it in case you want to understand where i'm coming from. but thanks for writing what you think, even if i don't agree. i appriciate it when some one has strong ideas, instead of being indecisive.

Wow! I am out of the office for one day and have managed to be told to STFU 3 diferent times. I WASNT EVEN HERE! I have also been called some form of an anti-American, or bad American on 5 different occasions. Whats the deal with that? You say you didnt ask for my opinion nor do you want it. Well quite frankly I was posting my OPINIONS and YES even facts to the people who were interested.(despite the fact that you said that when I wasnt even posting! Whats up with that?) Fact is, you are dead set in one way. None of your points are FACT based, its all opinions. You came into this post thinking you were all big and bag with all these ideas of how RIGHT you were. When you got here, you realized that you DID NOT know everything, nor all of the facts involved. THEN, because you couldnt defend your point, you attacked me personally. Like to know how I got the raw end of the deal. Why didnt you attack someone else, someone who said almost the same thing as I did? Probably because I defended myself. Listen kid, I dont know WHAT your problem is, I have done no differently than anyone else on this sight. Whatever your prob is, I'd be checking that out. Oh yeah..you wanted to know how old I was. I am 19.

To ur Clueless, Thank you very much for defending me when I wasnt here! hahaha. Nice to know you got my back! :), no seriously though, thank you for agreeing with me, as I find very little people here do. Its nice to meet someone who can see what is what, not just black and white like loser, aka, stfuHannah. (if that was a big secret that loser was the same as stfuhannah, sorry to break the news, but that was way to obvious!)Also, thank you for admitting you are 15. After the reputation loser gave 15 year olds, I would have had a hard time admitting that. :) But...I dont look down on you because you are 15. You seem to know what your doing in life, and where you are going. You seem to have your priorities set, and thats the place to start! Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
-Hannah-

Oh yeah...one more thing. for STFUHannah, Bobby Smith doesnt sound like a Korean name now does it?? Because that IS your name isnt it?

Hey Hannah! Thanks for the support. Don't worry I'll always be here to back you up, or anyone who agrees with me on this issue for that matter.:-) And thanks for agreeing with me too!
Honestly I can't understand what is wrong with some of the poeple on this site. Why can't they see the truth of the matter? Paul won, he should've won, he deserved to win, and he won. That's the bottom line. No matter how hard they try to get around it, it will still be the truth. Plain and simple.
So please all "non-Paul supporters" just stop lying to yourselves, it really won't get you anywhere.
Good luck to you too Hannah!:-)

Blah blah lbah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH!!@

Look, I admit, Paul played according to the rules and won according to the rules. What people are debating is who actually better that day. If consistency means something, then some would say Yang Tae-Young. That doesn't take away from Paul's great moments and his amazing comeback. It just means there is going to be a difference of opinion on who should have won the gold on that day, at that time. Do we all understand now??? Good.

They are both good. THE END.

everyone please smile. i propose a change in topic to: "the price of cluesticks," as somebody mentioned in a post waaay earlier. yay!

Just to let everyone know the (CAS)won't be making a decision until October 11, 2004

J,
Yes I had heard that date as well. I honestly think there is no way they can make Paul give up the medal. If anything, they will duplicate it. Still, that is a shame. This shouldnt be happening, and to share a medal is downright wrong. I would not want to share a medal, I dont care how good I was.
Maybe I am wrong, but I serioulsy think they will not make him give it up. I think the issue has made so much publicity, and Paul has too many supporters. If they want to keep people watching the Olympics, they need to drop the issue. Does anyone else have opinions on what could happen with the court date?

paul was in no way prideful. put yourself in his shoes. you work your whole life for that moment, and it finally happens. you KNOW that you earned it, and that the judges screwed up on your score and your opponent's. honestly, if you were in his place and you knew that you had rightfully earned it (because he did) you wouldn't have given it to your opponent either.

Hey Hannah, I agree with you. I don't think they'll take Paul's medal. It's really just to late to make such a discision. If they had done this earlier, a lot earlier, then maybe they might have. But at this point it would just be wrong. Don't you think?
As far as I'm concerned once he left Athens with that medal it was his for good. I'd be really angry and surprised if they took it away. And as for making a duplicate I think that's rediculous, you can't have a tie in the Olympics.
It was a joke when they gave out two golds at Salt Lake City and it would be a joke now.
Everyone should forget that incident because it's giving these officials an excuse to do it again. I think it's wrong what they did, the Canadian couple should have been givin the gold, end of story. Paul should keep the gold now, end of story.
Besides that happened because judges confessed to cheating. That's not the case now.
Now the officials are just trying to get everyone on their side by making everyone happy. Well you know what? Sometimes you have to make people unhappy, even make them hate you, by doing the right thing. I know because I've been in that position many times before. But I've done the right thing anyway, and the officials just have to grow up and do what is right, Simple as that.
They shouldn't be putting Paul in this situation. The guy has already had the greatest moment of his life ruined by this and now he has to defend himself in court? I feel really sorry for him and I'm angry that he has to go through this.
And another thing would this be a big deal if the sides had been reversed? No, they would have look at the tapes seen that he had too many holds and let the Korean keep the gold.
There's like this prejudice against big, successful countries. People think that since we're America and so well off that the smaller country should get everything in a dispute.
Did you hear about how Svetlana Khorkina said she should have won the women's all around and that Carly Patterson only won because she was American? That's blatent prejudice.
So I say good luck Paul, you're a winner to me!!!;-)

I was away for 2 weeks and trying to catch-up with all the posts since I do care about Paul Hamm. After reading half way down, I saw posts from SelfishAmerican and loser that upset me so much that I am posting this reward.

For any American citizen who don't think this is the best country to live and work, please send me your prof of citizenship and passport I will send you a one-way ticket to your selected country. Oh, and a letter that promised you will never return to America.

Tam Nguyen
P.O. Box 394
Duluth GA 30096.

I bet I will never hear from any of you cried babies that have been posted so negatively about America.

I am proud to be an American citizen and will defend my country at all cost. I hate John Kerry-Hanoi and Michael Moore and anyone that think we should chance to please the world.

and faw

It's pathetic to see how so many Americans can't see the difference between American PRIDE and American SELFISHNESS. Lately, American has become the land of never giving in and never admitting that they are wrong. Is it any wonder why the rest of the world hates us??? And don't tell me it's because we are number one because only 3rd world countries see America as #1. Countries like France, Spain, South Korea, Canada, and Japan are living quite comfortably and the majority of them would never want to live in America. After this Olympic scandal, I am really embarrassed to call myself an American. It's amazing to hear all these Americans being so selfish after reading this article for what it's worth. This article is only trying to explain what was the right thing to do and how much more Paul Hamm would have been respected for "doing the right thing". Please don't sit there and tell me that what Paul Hamm did was the right thing and not the selfish thing. It's starting to become a joke. If he did the right thing, there wouldn't still be debates over this whole ordeal. Thank you.
*OH, and this was a scandal. Don't you know that one of the judges worked in the same gym that Paul Hamm did??? He should have never been a judge period.

Posted by: SelfishAmerican at September 23, 2004 02:33 PM

Opss... I forgot.

Belated happy birthday Paul.

If you are reading this, please send Yang Tae-young a letter to give him one last chance to compete with you on all 6 events to let him know he did not deserve any medal at all. decide once and for And I bet you no body is going to put money on Yang's side.

FYI, This is fact, even the SK gymnasts admitted that they would not be on the top 10 if other did not make mistake. And Paul Hamm is our 2003 World Championship All Around Title.

:-)

Way to go Tam Nguyen! I agree with you 100%

Tam..AWESOME POST!!! I think you put into words what ur Clueless and I tried to express, but couldnt seem to get it accross. You did an excellent job. I loved the part where you ripped into SelfishAmerican and Loser. And you were absolutely right...they have nothing good to say about America, but given the choice they would NEVER leave here. Why? Because American is the best country in the World!!!
GOD BELSS AMERICA!!!

Thanks ur-clueless and Hannah :-)

By the way, I just read the attached article and it is so well written, instead of give you a link I have decided to cut-and-paste for your reading.

Enjoy!

-------------------------------------------
Let me be clear here, since some self-righteous columnists who wouldn't know a handstand from a night stand have entered the fray: Paul Hamm should not give up his gold medal.

Nor is his gold medal tarnished, as the headline writers have suggested. Nor should a second gold medal in the men's all-around competition be awarded to South Korea's unfortunate Yang Tae Young. This is not another Skategate, where judges in the pairs competition in Salt Lake were caught colluding. It's time for the media to back off.

Here's what happened -- and I warn you in advance, it's not easy to follow. Yang did his parallel bars routine, and was scored a 9.712 -- a pretty good score. To put it in perspective, in the team finals two nights earlier, he had a 9.687 on the same apparatus with a similar routine.

The two judges in charge of assigning start values for parallel bars in the all-around, Spain's Benjamin Bango and Colombia's Oscar Buitrago Reyes, decided Yang's start value was 9.9. The head judge on the parallel bars, George Beckstead, didn't overrule them.

It was these three judges who eventually were suspended by the International Gymnastics Federation when, after studying the videotape, it was determined the start value for Yang should have been 10.0, as it had been in the team competition finals. Had it been, Yang would have scored 9.812 on the apparatus, and his total would have been .10 higher heading into his final event, the high bars.

That is not to say Yang would have finished .10 higher at the end of the night, which some are suggesting. Gymnasts don't operate in a vacuum, nor do judges score in a vacuum.

Everyone knows exactly where they stand relative to the other competitors. Yang might have relaxed with the bigger lead; he might have become uptight and choked; or he might have been perfectly brilliant. We will never know. But it's fair to say his mental outlook would have been altered.

Judges, too, might have scored his high-bar routine differently had he been further ahead than he was at the time. It's not the way it's supposed to work, but judges are human. They have their favorites. That's why the FIG rules state that any protest must be filed before the end of a rotation -- in this case, the parallel bars -- which the Koreans failed to do.

A couple of points: a 9.9 start value is not unusual. The night of the all-around competition, Yang also had a 9.9 start value on his vault, and -- even lower -- a 9.8 start value on his high bar routine.

What's in a score?
How gymnastics scores are determined:

-- Gymnasts and coaches assemble routines after consulting the Code of Points, an extensive guide to the difficulty value assigned to every move and combination of moves.

-- In competition, there are eight judges for each event and a chief who oversees them.

-- The two-judge "A" Panel establishes the "start value," representing the maximum score the routine can earn. Most top gymnasts perform routines with start values between 9.7 and 10.

-- The six-judge "B" Panel evaluates the routine for execution faults, rhythm, presentation and artistry. Each judge takes deductions from the start value to determine a score.

-- The high and low scores from the "B" Panel are thrown out and the remaining scores are averaged for one final score.

The Associated Press




Disputes over start values occur all the time. Blaine Wilson of the U.S. was furious after the preliminaries of the team competition because the start values for him and two of his teammates had been lowered in the high-bar rotation. In this case, the disagreement was magnified because a gold medal hung in the balance.

The two judges charged with determining a start value must do so in real time, and they make their assessment on the basis of what the gymnast actually does: difficulty of elements, grip changes, releases and positions, to name a few. Not what's planned on paper.

It's incredibly complicated stuff. The head judge, in this case Beckstead, a veteran official from Los Angeles, generally only weighs in if there's a disagreement between the two officials assigning the start value. In the case of Yang, there was no disagreement.

Was a mistake made? Yes, they admitted as much. Did it decide the competition? Well, it affected it, no question. But it is flatly untrue to say if they'd had the start value correct at 10.0, then Yang would have won.

Was there corruption or collaboration on the part of the judges? No one has even suggested as much. As long as a sport is judged, subjectivity will play a role, and there will be accusations of bias. All gymnasts know this.

All gymnasts have suffered from bias, and sometimes, whether they admit it or not, have benefited from bias. It's part of gymnastics. Heck, it's part of all sport. It's the human element that gives athletics their great, universal appeal.

So why not a second gold medal? Why not accommodate the upset Koreans and send everyone home happy? Well for one thing, you can make a pretty good case that, if you're going to go to the videotape, Yang shouldn't have won.

Yes, the videotape of the parallel bars showed the judges erred by assigning a 9.9 start value. But it showed something else, too. In the course of his routine, Yang had four holds on the bar, when the rules allow for a maximum of three. The deduction for that mistake? Two-tenths of a point.

The judges missed it.

It is not enough to say Paul Hamm should keep his gold medal. He's a deserving champion. Period.

Hey Tam Nguyen (and Hannah)! I read the article you posted and I thought it was right on. As the article pointed out, some people really don't know what they're talking about. Especially people like Loser and SelfishAmerican.
I did enjoy your post. And I think it's really exciting to be able to talk to people who agree with me, don't you? I just come up against such negative views on this subject more often than not. So anyway I think that's pretty cool!
Talk to you guys soon!
-Chelsea- (aka ur clueless)

P.S. I LOVE YOU PAUL!!!!!:):););)

Tam,
Thank you for posting that. That was very interesting and beneficial to those who dont really know what was going "behind the scenes". So many people hear something, and without looking at the facts or researching what they are talking about...they form immediate opinions.
With Paul and Yang, well sure it looks unfair to Yang if Yang would have done better, or for that matter actually did what he was supposed to. It DOES LOOK unfair IF, and only if, there was a judging error. But there was soooo much more then one little judging error. What is so hard about that?
It wasnt just the start value that was judged wrong. They never caught the extra release. Heck...for that matter...who is to say there werent more. Perhaps if they reviewed every single tape (illegally) they would find there were MANY errors. Just this one had the shadow of the Gold Medal hanging over the table. Thats why it was blown so far out of proportion. I think that is what we are really missing here. There are mistakes all the time. Players know it, coaches know it, and yes even the judges know it. They judge things as they see them. They dont SEE everything. Dont you people understand?? Judging errors are made EVERY game!! And every gymnast knows it. Thats one of the beauties of the game, you get judges judging what they see the instant they see it. Thats why you want to be flashy and straight to the point. A judge cannot see everything you do, so you focus on a couple things you want them to see. Thats part of the game. Again, I will repeat myself...the ONLY reason this has gotten sooo much publicity is because its over the Gold Medal. Thats the ONLY reason. If it werent for the medal, this would go down with all of the other competitions with errors that no one hears about, or cares about.

one more thing,
Paul...you are my hero! I look up to you (no literally!) as an athlete and a human being. In the same situation, I would be likely to lose my temper and bring disgrace to America. You on the other hand resemble everything I want to be. As an athlete, I have been on the same side as you. I have done well, and others have been unfortunate to be on Yang's end. There have been many judging errors in the sports I have competed it. I have been on the recieving end, just like many others.
Thank you for having the courage to stand up and defend your medal. Thank you for showing me what it means to be upset, yet still a true athlete. Your an inspiration to me and I thank you for that. I can only hope to have the same air of confidence and sportsmanship as you yourself have displayed.
Thank you
-Hannah-

Hannah what you wrote is exactley how I feel about Paul too. I know I would have gotten angry in his situation, hell I might have even cursed people out or something. I get really worked up when people attack my discisions and things like that. But Paul has been amazing! He hasn't said one angry or hurtful thing to anyone. I guess that's why I want to defend him so much, because he's been so nice to everyone that he deserves it. Honestly I've never been this upset about something in a long time, and even then I didn't actually go on the internet and write about it!
So I think what you wrote is exactley how I've been feeling. Paul is my hero too, and not just when it comes to sports, he's my hero because of his character, and how well he has dealt with this very difficult situation. So thanks for writing that Hannah, I agree with you 1000000000000000000000000000000000000...%!!!:):)
But most of all thanks Paul for being the great guy that you are, you're my hero too. I LOVE YOU!!!

P.S. I'm going away for 2 weeks vacation so when you don't see any of my posts, that's why. I'll keep writing when I get back though. Hannah and Tam, hold the front for me while I'm gone!!!

No way in HELL should Paul give up his medal. None of us has been to the Olympics.Do you know how hard he had to work to not only reach Athens but to come back from behind to come in first? Let Koreans pout all they want because at the end of the day it's not Paul's fault and he shouldn't have to pay for someone else's mistake. So you keep your medal boy!!!

Has anyone heard how the judge ruled? Wasnt that supposed to be the 10th of this month? I have not heard or seen anything about it.

WHAT!?!?! How could anyone even consider putting any blame on Paul. It was the stupidity of those moronic Koreans and they need to deal with it. Paul has made all the right decisions and anyone who disagrees needs to move to Korea and show your patriotism to them.

fuck u all. just because u "americans" have all the power doesn't mean u should diss me and my fellow koreans.i say paul hamm is an idiot and a selfish son of a bitch.

paul was right because giving the medal back would have been condoning FIGs kind of shady behavior. not because it's always good to be patriotic to the point of being blind!!

i rather be patriotic then dissing other people. i don't care whether paul hamm got the gold medal. i care of the comment that he gave to us stupid.

i rather be patriotic then dissing other people. i don't care whether paul hamm got the gold medal. i care of the comment that he gave to us stupid.

i rather be patriotic then dissing other people. i don't care whether paul hamm got the gold medal. i care of the comment that he gave to us stupid.

tfghgrl,

my post was in response to madison, not you.

sorry howdy . ....

For all of those who are actually concerned about the PAUL HAMM issue...I just checked out the Olympic website and that says an official ruling for the medal will not be made until this week sometime. It gave no date. Lets keep our fingers crossed!!!
-hannah

Tfghgrl,
Ok...first off...you are miserably wrong. We live in America, it is natrual to be Patriotic. Secondly...I would be interested in hearing the "remark" made by Paul Hamm directed to Koreans. Because thats news to me. Paul never said anything to the s.k. guy. Not a word. And for you to sit here and critisize him for it shows only that you cant defend anything you say, so you critisize what you think Paul was "thinking". Seriously...if you are going to post on this site please check your facts before doing so. The rest of us would like to keep the conversation limited to those who know what we are talking about.
Secondly....I would like to know how Paul is "selfish" and a s.o.b.? Listen...because your s.k. didnt win doesnt make Paul those things. Sounds to me more like a kid throwing a tantrum. Anyone else agree?

YES!!!!!! The courts ruled yesterday that Paul gets to keep is gold!!!! AWESOME JOB PAUL!!!

I was away for few weeks but did hear the good news but have been so busy aand just now able to
get back to this link.

Thanks Hannah and ur-clueless for your kind words.

Speaking of kind words, I would like to say something to tfghgrl. As an Asian I was shock to read your post with your kind of language. Our parent taught us politness take us a long way, and maner also mean much more than effort.
Also many years ago I learn from my boss that it would make a great person to learn how to agree even when we disagreed.

So please watch your language, I don't want to give others a bad impression of us. By the way, I am Vietnamese. In case you are wondering.

As of this point, this post should be close so we all can move on bigger and better thing.

Paul Hamm, HaHannah and Chelsea (aka ur-clueless), I can be reached via email at chinhtamnguyen@yahoo.com.

Have a great life everyone :-)

whatever. i don't quite agree tfghgrl on the whole patriotism thing but I do agree with her about Paul Hamm. I mean it is reported on the news that he said that remark about the whatever his name is Korean gymanst..sorry tfghgrl.... ne way paul hamm....I still don't think he should have made that kind of remark...

Hi Whatever,

I must have missed it, what did Paul say that you don't agree with? And I guess you do agree with tfghgrl on his language huh?

I found this article on one of the Hamm brothers related lviejournal communities: http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200410/29/200410292211524209900091009101.html. I must say that I'm glad to hear that not all Koreans are bitter about the outcome, and I agree with pretty much what this person wrote. Only one thing I don't agree on though is in the very end, it was written about how it is ok to come home empty handed and that anyone who competed in the Olympics is a winner. In this case though, Yang Tae Young did not go home empty handed. He had won the bronze medal...and the Koreans were not even expected to medal. They should be proud of that accomplishment. And I read in the beginning of the controversy, he had accepted his ranking, but I think the KOC and Bruno Grandi all had made this issue such a big deal that it got into his head. I put the most blame on Bruno Grandi though. He's the one who turned this whole thing into one big mess. If it weren't for him, then the situation would not have gotten this big, Paul would not have been thought too much like a poor sport for not giving up the medal, and the Koreans would not have made themselves look as bad. It is because of Bruno Grandi's letter that made the KOC and Yang Tae Young to take this whole situation to court, and look, they fought this hard, and they produced no results.

I came to a conclusion that whoever thought Yang won the gold if they followed the rule either did not know gymnastics nor do proper research.

Could not believe I took times and read the article but I did it and the only thing I agreed with Brian is the last paragraph.

I blame Yang for understood the rule the game but was drawing into the hype that some how believed he is better than he was. He is lucky to receive a medal and he should accept the result. And he deserved the embarrassment and humiliation.

Hey yall! Don't bash him! Way to go Paul!

And go *Bush* don't yall dare diss the prez.. (at least when he in office) even if u dislike him. He WAS elected you know!

no, he was appointed by a supreme court judge who game him florida (run by his brother) for the electoral vote. al gore won the popular vote that year.

Sigh...
FYI NO president has ever won BOTH popular vote and electoral vote...except today with Bush. So the whole crap about Al Gore winning the popular vote, therfore he should be pres? please please pleaes know your facts. No one has ever done that besides this year. Give me a break!
GO BUSH!!! 4 MORE YEARS!!!!

if Bush finds one and frees us from the middle east, it will totally change my mind.

Hannah,

I wrote that yesterday!? Stop being such a rabid, fanatical poster.

I agreed.

And I would like to remind all the negative thinkers, if you sincerely love your country regardless of it is America or Canada or Iraq, you all can learn something that our former president John F Kennedy said 40+ years ago,

� � And so, my fellow Americans... ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.�

So go do something good for your country by start being positive and contribute something to your country. Thank you.

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Well the coaches who have competed in gymnastics know how the rules work from the very beginning levels. If they don't, then maybe they should re-evaulate themselves as a coach. My daughter's scores have been questioned immediately after a rotation. Paul did what he came there to do. Yang did one too many holds. If there wes a need to re-evaulate one routine then all should be done.

Hey everyone! It's good to be back! Hannah and Tam Nguyen, I can see that you guys have done a good job holding your own!
-I got back in time for the election (even though it's all over the place in the U.K.)and I say good job President Bush! I'm glad he won, most of the democrats are wimps about not going to war and stupid stuff like that.
-Tfghgrl, I don't understand why you feel the need to curse at us "Americans", or Paul Hamm. I know I've never attacked you or your athlete and I haven't seen anyone else do that. Paul isn't selfish and he never said anything bad about Yang or Korean's in general so I don't know where you came up with that one.
So please keep your foul language and hateful attitude to yourself, it's unattractive and only gives us a bad idea of people in your country.
I agree with you Tam, everyone should try to give their country a good name. I'm sorry tfghgrl but you have only done the opposite.
-I'll talk to all of you guys soon. Paul supporters keep on talking!
-Chelsea-

P.S. Sigh what do you think would've happened if Gore had been the president the past 4 years, I mean with the 9/11 attacks and everything. What would he have done? You tell me.

UR Clueless,

Nobody argues with you guys on this board because they really can't be bothered. You guys are completely one sided, uninformed and refuse to look at the other side of the issue. It's obvious none of you read the newspaper.

Gore would probably have led a NATO alliance in Afghanistan and focused on finding Bin Laden. That's what a sane, reasonable person would do.

Regarding Iraq, he would have pushed for mutlilateral action and weapons inspection in the UN. I know the UN isn't perfect, but it is the only international forum. Hence he would also have imposed an economic embargo on Saddam on behalf of the US and of course used the military if it was for self-defense only.

Now all of you go read the newspaper and shut up.

Ok, half of that is what I would hope he'd do. I think he would.

The point is, noone who cracks a book is going to explain these things to you. I'm sorry but it's true.

Sigh...
wow. alot of wishful thinking is what I picked up from your most recent posts.
As far as Gore is concerned...you have GOT to be kidding me. Gore would be the idiot going, "What towers? Since when did we have twin towers?" I mean seriously....Gore would have sat on his ass and let the world continue on.

And in all honesty....Gore would be just like Kerry, just not as bright. He was not the brightest thing. I am not a sraight Republican...I can admitt Clinton was at least decent. He was as smart man, even if I didnt agree with him on issues. but Al Gore is just a category by himself!! How can you explain Gore to anyone? he is...well.....about as smart as my 2 yr old sister!!!!You are right on one thing though...he would have let Nato decide what would happen. So what you are saying is basically...Gore would have let Paris decide what we should do...and to hell with 50 million liberated Iraqis. Hmm. Now where are your morals???

The people against Paul Hamm areis obviously ignorant to the sport of gymnastics. If they did understand the sport, they would never have written such stories about Paul Hamm.

Paul Hamm is the Olympic Champion. Period. Unfortunately, many people like the anti-Hamm's aremaking this champion appear to be less than a champion.

The sport of gymnastics is judged by people. People make errors all the time. That is part of the sport. It is not Paul who is being the sore winner. It is the Koreans who are being the sore losers. Now, I ask you, if Paul were to give up his gold, would the silver medalist Korean give up his silver and take the bronze? No. No one hears about him complaining. For his teammate to take the gold, he would have to fall a step as well. This is probably something he would not want to do, nor should he.

Gymnastics will always have judging errors. That is part of the sport. Every gymnast alive can think of numerous times when they would have advanced to a national competition, or a regional competition, or would have won, but based upon an error in judging, they did not. I can think of quite a few where that happened to me personally. Was it the Olympics? No. But when I was 13 years old, the Level 10 Nationals felt like they were the Olympics. I didn't advance to that national competition. I loss by less than a tenth of a point. Why? Well, because I was unfortunately in the first session, and the first sessions score lower than the second sessions because the judges grow tired as the day wears on. Did I complain to USGF? No. Did I cry? Of course I did. But that was it. A 13 year old girl cried for a couple days.

No one hears the United States complaining about our silver medal in the team finalists. Does anyone remember the Japanese judge who decided two days before the meet to decrease the bonus points of a specific move? No, the United States is not crying foul. Although the United States had to change at least two of the high bar routines in order to not lose our tenths of a point that would be lost based upon this judging decision, the United States team decided to go with it, and ended up second, behind the Japanese team.

The United States did not cry to FIG. The United States decided to work with the judge, and unfortunately, came up second in the end.

Paul Hamm should not have to give up his medal based upon a judging error. Lord knows, Paul himself, and every other gymnast in the world has had judges take away tenths when they should not have. It is part of the sport. If the sport wants to do replays, why don't we go through each and every one of Paul's routines as well? I am sure there were deductions made that were not accurate. I am sure that if we decided to scrutinize each and every person's routines in slow motion, many of Paul's deductions would be overturned as well, and he would still remain the gold medalist.

I hope that this type of scrutiny will never happen. I hope that no other gymnast will go crying to FIG every time the judges make a mistake. I hope that gymnastics will not succumb to such tactics, and that everyone will go on with their lives. I will continue on with mine. And in my mind, Paul Hamm is the Olympic Champion, no strings attached. Congratulations Paul.

I rather keep the Politics out of this board but couldn�t after read Sigh�s post. Don�t you hate it when the other side accused you from not reading news if you did not agreed or sided with them! I do � .

Furthermore we just had an election and we, the people, elected our new president for the next 4 years (to be exact, reelected our president) why could we all united and support our president when we agreed with him and sit back and watch when we disagreed with him. Our country would be a better place if we all can just agree to do just that.

Be a contributor not the talker.

Tam

PS Sigh, If you are reading so much how did you miss that Kerry was a traitor and support him, what was your true reason?

hannah and tam,

I can see there is no point in arguing with you, because you form your opinions on 10 second sound bytes you see on TV.

Nobody would let Paris decide the future of this country, not even Gore.

Also, don't be ridiculous. Do you think any country would go to war JUST to liberate another country? NO, you guys are naive. There are other strategic issues, like security and oil. Why do you think they don't liberate Rwanda and Sudan? Because there are no benefits to doing so. This is not utopita.

I don't think Kerry was the best candidate, that's why he lost by 2%. It's not a lot people.

FYI: I have nothing against Paul Hamm.

Sigh, It seems like you love to use name calling by offer no new solution. I wish you would use your energy in doing some thing good for the country. Like I said before be a contributor.

You don't know neither one of us but you knew we are forming our opinion from the 10 second sound bytes!!! Was that why you support the traitor John Kerry Hanoi?

Be happy, be positive, be a good American, be a contributor.

Tam

�Nobody would let Paris decide the future of this country, not even Gore.�
Would you please do little research on Kerry records and actions in the last 40 years. Base on my experience with him, he would do exactly just that if that what needed for him to staying in power. Did you know that Kerry actually killed a woman while she's feeding her baby? A friend of my knew a Vietnamese officer who saw the incident, he later reported but they simply transfer Kerry elsewhere.

tam,

i did not watch the kerry smear campaign (funded by his opponenets), and i don't believe everything i see on tv. what you think kerry would do is your personal opinion. like i said, he did not strike me as perfection, but who is? how many of us have been to war and run for president? you would have to make some really hard choices.

i could tell you that bush got C's at yale (becuase they won't let you fail once you get in), was caught drunk driving and ran two companies into bankruptcy but that's not going to change your mind. hardly anyone changes their mind when it comes to politics.

it seems to me you like are preaching that everyone who agrees with you is a good american and everone who doesn't isn't. that's not very tolerant at all. i am just a normal person, and i voted, and that is contributing.

i don't have all the answers, i'm sure you don't either. i think they should have focused on catching osama and stop money laundering that finances terrorism.

maybe you guys think they should keep bombing everyone. that just starts a never ending cycle of violence which is what you see in Israel/Palestine.

what's more, i would vote republican if the candidate cared about the environment as i believe in privatization.

sigh.

oh yeah, another idea would be to invest in researching/inventing an alternative to oil, as someone mentioned above. that way we would be at the mercy of oil prices in the middle east and we wouldn't have to be so involved over there.

Hey ... "John Kerry Hanoi" = 10 second sound byte, LOL!
Actually, it's a 3 second sound byte which is even better.
I have to give credit where credit is due; the Republican strategists are brilliant. But Kerry also contributed to his own loss by not being a Southern Democrat.

Cheers.

That is enough politics for today.

I have a challenge for everyone.

Let's contribute some thing positive to our beloved country in 2004 and many more years after that.

And voting is not considered as contribute. It is a right and a obligation.

Could we all just agree to do just that?

Love,
Tam

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Sigh, Where do I start? First of all I don't believe everything I see on TV, if I did I would have to be a democrat. The media is totally biased, they're all democrats! Also I realize that Bush may have made mistakes, but so did Kerry, so lets just forget about their humanity for a while and look at the facts. Why did we go to war? While no one can truly answer that(besides our president) I believe that war was absolutely necessary givin the circumstances. We were attacked! Thousands of our people were killed in NY, including my mom's cousin. I've seen what this does to families first hand, but I still can't imagine what it's like for some people. The only way we could've responded was the way we did. We had to go to war, to free a nation from a crazy dictator, fight terrorism, and find the people responsible for what happened. We haven't found Bin Ladin yet but we would have no chance in hell if we just sat back and watched the UN "inspect" Iraq. Why do we even have to talk to the UN to begin with, and deal with cowards like the French? I don't know. I think we should fight to free other countries as well, but do you think democrats would want to? All they say is "don't go to war, it causes the unecessary death of our soldiers" well guess what, those soldiers support Bush and it's their job to fight.
So in the end only some people who are out of their minds and celebrities (I have nothing against either by the way) supported Kerry, that's why he lost. So now lets all get over it already and just support our president and our country.
And our athlete Paul Hamm.
Thanks Tam and Hannah, for telling the truth.
Bye guys,
Chelsea

P.S. Who in the hell is "Ralph" and what in the hell did he post?
Lets try to keep this site clean please.

Me

UR Clueless,

I live in NYC. I was there duringt 9/11. We were attacked by Afghanistan, which is a different to country to Iraq.

How many times does this need to be said? War in Afghanistan was warranted. Iraq is a huge grey area.

There are so many other issues that won't be discussed here, the CIA has assasinated people and trained people who later turned against us, and the Iraqis are not obligated to elect a pro-US government (though depending on the US they may have to) due to a concept called "Self-determination" which is the right a people to elect any form of government they please, whether or not it makes another country happy.

I can't be bothered explaining all these things anymore.

Later,
Sigh.

Nobody has all the answers, all the time. We just have to try the best we can hope for peace.

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"Nobody has all the answers, all the time. We just have to try the best we can hope for peace."

Finally someone said it. I support you "nobody", in my book you are special somebody.

And once again thanks Hannah and Chelsea for been open-minded and kind.

As I said it before, and I sincerely ask this board one more time, Are you willing to take a
challenge? Here is one special challenge for you to focus your energy to:

Let's contribute some thing positive to our beloved country in 2004 and many more years after that.

And sigh you seem like a great intelligent person, why could you use your talent in serving our country positively instead of needle on a death issue?

Take care,
Tam

By the way, Does anyone have good spy software that can locate Dan, Roy and Ralph for me. I bet all of the posts posted by them coming from the same site. I would like to submit their IP address to FBI.

I agree with Nobody, Nobody has all the answers all of the time. I just felt like people on this board were egging others on with phrases like "You tell me" etc. There might me chance that Iraq works out, in which case of course I will be as relieved as anyone else.

Also, I'm not that smart, the things I said are common knowledge, at least amongst people who take even a medium interest in this stuff. And yes I have worked for counter-terrorism in a non-profit org.

Peace out!
sigh.

Long live freedom of speech; a dearly beloved American value.

Sigh,

So you agree to accept my challenge?

Tam

Tam,

Of course, I'll do what I can. I'm not as awful and jaded as I sound and I know we're all just human beings. I actually wish all of you the best. Just thought I'd try to clarify a few things.

Have a great life everyone.
Sigh.

Great!

I knew we all love our country and want the best for her.

I just little afraid during the election campaign we might be strong-minded and open ourselves up that our enemies can take advantage of it to hurt us again.

I sincerely hope we all can put our difference aside and do what best for the country. Let's not forget 9/11 and our enemy's wish.

Take care and have a great life everyone.
Tam

Sigh,
Alright, I can agree to disagree when it comes to politics. You know where I stand, and I know where you stand. But one thing you said caught my attention. You had said, none of us have been to war. Well....in a way I have been there right along with the other soldiers. Allow me to explain, and maybe you can see why I feel the way I do.
My father is a Colonel in the Army. My Fiancee is a Army Ranger. He was one of the first troops deployed into Iraq. He has been home once, when he proposed, and then was deployed again. he has been there now for 13 months without seeing eachother. I have had the PRIVELEGE to talk to him online once and a while, but that is the extend of it. I know somewhat of what he is doing. He is in Baghdad right now, well...at least as of last night. I am not sure if any of you heard of the helicopter that was shot down and killed 13 men??? Well...those were his roomates. He was supposed to be on that flight, but missed it. Needless to say I havent been getting much sleep since he has been over there! I am sure anyone would agree with me when I say I want him home with me where I know he is safe!! Any mother, wife, father, fiancee would say the same thing. But the difference between you and I sigh is...I know why he's there. He's defending our country. If Drew should die, I'll know it was a good cause and not a day will go by that I wont thank God he lived a wonderful life, and died serving his country. Thats more then I could ask. I love him with all of my heart, but I LOVE the fact that he is in Iraq. I would rather have him there defending our country then here with me, as harsh as that sounds. He knows that beyond a shadow of a doubt I would die for him, but defending America is more important then satisfying me.
Hopefully you can understand where I am coming from!!!
~Hannah~

Also...I am very aware that Saddam did NOT attack us on 9/11. But there is just no way that GIVEN the chance, he wouldnt have. You cannot honestly say that Saddam wouldnot have ever harmed us if he knew how. I mean...look at the guys life! I dont think there was really any argument over the fact that Saddam needed to go. And yes its common knowldege now that Saddam didnt hurt us. Its all about terror though, even Bush himself said the same thing. Its all about stopping terrorists. Its all about finding them where they hide, and we HAVE found them in Iraq! And how cool is it that we liberated 50 million people? Women and children? You see...it isnt about who attacked us anymore, although yes we are going to find that dirty Bin Laden, but its more about, " Hey, we were attacked by terrorists, lets get rid of em all before it happens again!" And we needed to start somewhere, we couldnt get Bin Laden, and I know for a fact that we ARE searching for hi as many wold argue. But we had to start somewhere, and we knew we could start with Iraq.
Not that this pertains to anyone on this site, but on the television and even in my hometown there are people critisizing our military. I cannot help but think of Vietnam, when we sent troops over there, the American public didnt like it...so we turned out back on our troops. I have no respect for people like that. American or not, when you treat fellow citizens, Military personal like garabage, then there is a serious problem. Anyways...I have heard a lot of talk of people actually outright 'hating' American forces. The whole Human shield thing. I would like to grab these people and just shake them! Wether you disagree with the war or not, you support our forces! And Sigh...I know that you do. I dont doubt that, I am just making a point at how some people's disagreement with the President and the war has gone too far. I dont care who you are, where your from, or what your situation is...we need to rally round our troops and show our support! I am not just talking as some girl who has a finacee (**update** Drew is now in Fallujah, but thats all I know! :( ) in Iraq, but as an American!!! So lets show our support as some of the troops are coming home! it is hard to see so many coming home, and knowing Drew is still over there, but I love our military! I love our country, and anyone, man or woman, who defends this country deserves my utmost respect...and they have it!
Good bless our troops!!!
-Hannah-

Hey Hannah,
I think you're really great to support the fact that your fiancee is in the war. A lot of people who have loved ones in the war are to selfish to support what their loved ones are fighting for. Your courage should be an example to all of us. I can't say that I'm connected to the war in any way, I just support it. But you support it when you know that the guy you love could be killed because of it, that takes a lot of guts!
-Sigh, you just don't understand, I'm sorry. Some people get it (like Hannah) and some people just don't. It's really to bad for you.
-I agree with Tam, all of you guys, just do something for our country, even if it's just supporting our president and his discisions. And all of our brave soldiers (that are fighting for us by the way).
-God bless you Hannah, and Drew, and all of our soldiers.
-Chelsea-

P.S. God bless Paul too! We've kind of swerved off subject a little.
-Me-

UR Clueless,

Um, sorry, I do understand where you guys are coming from. And I applaud the bravery of the troops.

But you will never understand what I'm trying to say. I guess it's better that way.

Bye!

ps: don't bother mentioning my name again; i won't reply. it would be more constuctive for you to play rocks, paper, scissors. and that has nothing to do with the position you take, only how state it. sorry.

Oh yeah, I've heard EXCELLENT cases to dismiss the UN and go with Bush. Very, very convincing; just not on this board.

H, I hope your fiance returns home safe.

ur clueless,

i think you should change your name to "i am clueless" or "lil miss huffy."

i mean, sigh points out that iraq and afghanistan are 2 SEPARATE countries and you get all snippy and change the subject? uh, yeah, riiiight, clueless.

Hannah,

Best of luck to you and Drew! Things will working out fine.

BTW, when is the big date ;-) ? I would love to attend if you would send me the invitation ;-)

Next time you talk with Drew tell him thank you from me and my family for protecting us.

As I stated several times before, let�s move forward and be positive to make our country proud. And one more thing, please stop name calling and personal attack, we are all adult and we should be able to discuss all issues without name calling or personally attack each other.

Take care,
Tam

Tam...
the date is next December, but that really all depends on where he is stationed, and if he can get home (if he is in Iraq)!
Thank you Tam, Chelsea, and sigh for all of your support for Drew! I will pass it on to him, and I know he will be very encouraged by your kind words and thoughts.
Tam...I will let you know when we have a set date!! I have your email, so I can contact you through there. There is so much more I could say about Drew and his division..but I wont bore you to tears!! :)
Please continue to pray for our troops, not just Andy, but our President as well.
Thank you all so much!
~Hannah~

So tell us Hannah...what does your military sweetheart look like??? :)

Mia...
well...where do I start? I dont see how this is relevant to ANYTHING...but I am more then willing to tell you about Drew!
he is the perfect tall dark and handsome. 6'5, black hair, very tan, and oddly enough he has green eyes. And he is very taken!! :)
But his personality is 100 times better then his looks! Dont get me wrong...he is a babe! but seriously, he is the sweetest guy on earth! in my very biased opinion! haha.
Well..I could talk about him all day long...and thank you for asking, but I think we need to talk about Paul Hamm! Has anyone heard how he is doing these days? The only think I heard was that he got to keep his medal, I didnt hear his reaction or anything!!! Anyone know????
Speaking of medals...did you all hear about michael Phelps?? So much for a model to todays youth huh???
~Hannah~

Model? Please �

Something is wrong with our society that we put the value on the wrong thing like sport-person or celebrity. They just excel in their craft just like I did in systems design or you did in your own profession. Yes, Paul Hamm is a great gymnast and Michael Phelps is a great swimmer. But please don�t make our kids model their life after these two individuals.

When we start recognize their true value perhaps we can reshape our country to put value on the proper thing.

Any thoughts on this issue.

Tam

Trey

I didn't change the subject or get "huffy" or "snippy" as you so politely worded it.
And I would appreciate it if you would respect my views and not call me names. I'm not going to attack you in anyway.

-Hey Hannah! You're a lucky girl, Drew sounds perfect! I hope you guys have a great, long life together, I'm sure you will!:)
I'll be praying for both of you. Tell Drew his service is very much appriciated and applauded.

-No, I haven't heard anything about Paul lately, but if I do I'll be sure to pass it on. Oh I haven't heard about Micheal Phelps, could you fill me in?

-Sigh just in case you do get on again I just want to say thank you for your kind words. I'm sorry if I came across as being angry at you or anything like that, I'm not at all.

-And Tam I agree. I don't think we should try to be like famous people just because they are famous. We should emulate people who really deserve to be.
I actually do think Paul Hamm is a good role model, he's so nice!
Bye everyone, the best of luck!

-Chelsea-

Ok..Tam...maybe I should clarify. When I said Phelps was a model for todays youth...I wasnt implying by ANY means that I would suggest he should be a model. I agree with you, our children need to look a little closer to home to find there heroes. My baby Emma has a daddy in the army, and I sincerely hope she views her father 100 times the hero that michael phelps could ever be to her. Even though she has never seen her daddy, and she is only 3 months old, you can be sure that she sees pictures of Drew everyday, and even now when she sees his pictures, she hears me tell her how much her daddy loves her and how wonderful he is! And Drew has seen her pictures and heard her little baby coos on the phone and has known that he is fighting in Iraq to protect his baby girl. That is a hero. Our children need to be DIRECTED closer to home!!
But the fact is that kids DO look to celebs. for heroism...they just do. I dont think we can change that. But we can instill in our children the knowledge that heroism is found in values and a person, not skills and athleticism. Another fact is...wether he wants to be or not Michael Phelps is a role model. Kids look up to him and want to be just like him. He is an Olypmian, and people watch him. And it seems to me, that while I disagree, that he as abused that.
Chelsea...Michael Phelps was arrested for Drunk driving last week. And thank you...I will pass it on to Drew.
I hope I clarified a little for you Tam, and I hope you understand what I was trying to say!!
~Hannah~

Well I don't particularly worship any celebrities, but I do find some to be really inspirational. Paul is an example of inspiration for me. Especially the way he wouldn't let that one mistake on vault get him down for long. I know a lot of athletes would go downhill from that point, but Paul used that mistake as inspiration for him to do really well on his last two performances. He just didn't give up. He fought for his goal. It brough me a lot of inspiration and determination for me to do well on my own tasks. Like my hardest semester of nursing school. What he did at the Olympics tells me that I should fight till the end, and no let one bad test grade let me down. It's not over until it's truly over. And to not let one bad clinical day get me down. I should just think of what I did and build on that to improve myself. This is how I'm getting through this semester. It's thanks to Paul.

Hica19,
Thats really great! I agree with you 100%, Paul is no hero, but we can draw inspiration from people like him who fight with everything they have until the very end. Its PEOPLE like him, not celebs like him!
Excellent point.
~Hannah~

hannah...
If I were you i wouldnt be smack talkin phelps for being a screw up. you have a kid and arent married. in fact..arent you only 18? whos the screw up?

Screw up...
First off...I am 20 years old. I had posted earlier that I am 18, but that was a typo...I was 19. I just recently had a birthday and I am 20 years old. As for a screw up....you know nothing about me or my Fiancee, or our baby. I wouldnt be so quick to judge.
I got pregnant after Drew had proposed, and in no way shape or form do Drew or I consider Emma a mistake or accident. No we didnt plan on her...but given the chance we would do it all over again. my Only regret is that Drew wasnt there with me when I had her. And thats his only regret too.
I am no screw up. Drew is no screw up. And our baby is no mistake. I resent the fact that you had the nerve to say that.
I am a 20 year old woman fully capable of taking care of my child while Drew is away. And when he comes home we will take care of her together. We are two fully capable people.
So check the facts before you start throwing accusations.

And another thing...
I manage a job, school, and a baby. I have been very succesful in my sports. I would hardly consider that a screw up. And Drew joined the Army at 18, he is now 22. He has moved from a nobody to an Army Ranger, a specialized ranking officer. and I will warn you right now that no one calls Drew a screw up. He had a straight 4.0 all through high school. Captain of the basketball and hockey teams. 3 time MVP in both sports. And anybody who can make it through basics and into the Rangers is def. no screw up!!!
So again..check the facts before you throw out your WRONG accusations!!!

I dont really care what you have done in your lifetime. I dont really care what your precious Drew has done either. Yeah thats great that he is in the army. but I dont see the difference between you two having sex too early or phelps drinking too early. you both screwed up. you cant control your emotions, and neither could he.
So tell me...did you hop in bed with him the minute he proposed? or did you "wait"?

Screw up...
You need to grow up. Seriously. I dont feel the need to "excuse" what Drew and I chose to do, or often we do it. We dont live together, we never have. As I said earlier..I wasnt planning on getting pregnant, go figure you would get pregnant from the one night thing. But Emma was no accident,we take full responsibility for actions. We had a baby...we love her...what more do you want from me? Drew was floored when I told him..he never expected it. When I told him he cried. Not because he was sad...but because he was so happy. We are not screw ups.just two people who love each other and had a baby, normal. The only thing not normal is that Drew was not there for any of it.
So get off it!

and I never said Phelps was a screw up, I said he MESSED up. And he did. Any guy good enough to get 5-6 gold medals needs to be careful!

I somewhat agreed with Hannah but I think we ought to leave this personal issue as personal choice.

What is happen between 2 persons in their private life is between them, but bringing another person to life should be between 2 married couple. It is a responsibility 2 adults ought to consider seriously before things start heating up. There is nothing magic about having sex or having a baby, most of the info out there for us to read. So read it and understand it before doing it. There is no excuse for un-planned pregnancy.

But in this case Hanah and Drew decided to raise their daughter in a loving family and her daughter would never need to know anything else but her parents both love her dearly

Go back to M.P., he is still under 21 and he broke the law and to me that is so irresponsible and he will pay a big price for that mistake.

Oh, well need to get back to work.

Tam
Why couldn't we all save "it" until that special night?

AHAHAHAHAHA. I truly feel that people like HANNAH need a wake up call. Hey HANAH, go back through all the things you have typed on this website. You have contradicted yourself so many times and even caught yourself lying a few times. your 18? 19? 20? your a coach for 3 different sports? etc. etc. etc. The lies keep pouring in. immature 15 year old and thanall of a sudden you take it back and you respect a 15 year old? AHAHAHAHA. such a joke. btw, just to piss you off so I can see you throw out like 10 more replies... PAUL HAMM SUKS! And your man isn't an officer stupid... what military academy did he go to? or was it ROTC? how long did it take for him to become an officer? what college? STOP LYING HANNAH!!!

Hahaha!

So what is your point? I trust Hannah. And for you, what is your real name or do you have gut to let us know. Complaining and judging others people is not a manly thing. Put your energy and effort in to work if you need a real assignment give me a call 864-575-8804.

And Hannah, don't let that bother you to much. You got to do what you got to do, as long as you in peace with yourself that is truly matter. Please take good care of your daughter.

Tam Nguyen

I was so upset I even type my phone wrong. Here it is again 864-677-8804.

Tam

HAHAHA,
wow seems like you need a reading lesson. In fact, if you read my posts you should know there were no lies. Let me repeat myself...I said I was 18, that was a typo. I was 19 at the time. I am NOW 20, I had a birthday last month. If you want birth records just give me your stinkin address! Yes I do coach 3 different sports. I never once contradicted that. And when it comes to the immature 15 year old...I was talking about the kid "loser" and when I said I respected, I was talking about someone else entirely!!! LEARN TO READ!
And if thats the only contradictions you can find I say you need a better basis then that! Quite frankly...I dont care if you believe me! I dont see any need to prove anything to you. If you dont...thats fine..we are all entitled to our opinions, and I could care less what yours is.
And as far as my Fiancee is concerned...I really see no purpose in giving out his personal information when it comes to where he is based, what academy he attended. You dont seem to interested in the facts...and what purpose would there be in giving out his info on the internet? Just to prove it to you? Well..as I said before...I dont care what you believe! I am am little more mature then that.
Listen...I dont claim to be anything great. But I am responsible when it comes to my child and what I do with my life. I love my family, I love what I do for a living, and I love my sports. Apparently thats a problem for you...and I am not sure why. Give me some solid facts as to how I have contradicted myself..and I can back anything up. I am willing to back up anything and everything I have said on this site. So please....give some facts or shut your mouth.
Tam...first off...thank you for your support. It means alot to me.
Secondly...about your first post concerning my daughter. I think you are right to a degree. The choice to have children SHOULD be between to married people. But it is still a choice. There are too many teens out there getting pregnant, and tossing there children away. Either that or raising them when they have no means to support another life! Half of them barely support themselves. If that is the case...I say thats terribly irresponsible. People need to consider the consequences before they act!
But as far as Drew and I...Yeah we prob should have waited. My whole point was that my child will NOT grow up thinking her parents dont want her, or that she was a mistake. No we did not plan on her...but in no way would we trade her for anything now that we have her! No...I didnt expect to get pregnant, or did Drew expect to be a father who didnt even get to see his child until she is a year old. But...seeing her and having her makes it seem worth the heartache and pain.
So yes...we SHOULD have waited until we were married...I truly believe that..but it happened...and we brought another person into the world. And now that I know the outcome...I know how she will be raised..and we can support her and love her, I wouldnt change that. I would not give her up for anything...and that one time Drew and I had sex brought a child into the world...well...so be it. We shoudl have waited...but we didnt. And Emma will never have to live a day thinking she was a mistake. Expected...no...wanted...YES!
Tam...I take it you have children? Thats great! I respect what you have said. I think you are right on. And I really value any advice you could give as to raising a child!! Especially since I am raising her without a dad for the time being. And dont worry....I am taking great care of my daughter! I really wonder about the parents who abuse there children physically and emotionally. Thats really sad to know there are so many children out there who arent loved or cared for. And worse...they know no one loves them.
Anywho...I guess in Maryland where phelps was arrested it wasnt illegl for him to drink under 21. I am not sure if that is a fact or not...but that is just what I have heard. If so...then you would think he would have a much more serious punishment.
Let me ask agian...has anyone heard about Paul lately??

Yep :-) I have a 3 years 4 months old daughter. Love her more than my own happiness or life. I will tell you more if you are interested via email or phone. Send me your email address to chinhtamnguyen@yahoo.com I would love to discuss children with anyone ;-)

Tam

Hey everybody!
First of all HAHAHA, you have no right to attack other people for their personal decisions. Yes I admit that Hannah and Drew should have waited, I'm definately going to, but that was their choice. I'm sure you've made mistakes yourself. I know I have.
As for contradictions in Hannah's posts, I don't think there were any. I've been on this site for a long time and I've read everyone's posts (everyone that is currently on), I agree with Hannah's views and found no contradictions at all.
And one more thing. Please don't say anything bad about Paul Hamm unless you want to express your ideas in a calm and controlled way. Paul is a great guy.

-Hey Hannah, I just wanted to tell you not to let all of this stuff get to you.
I've been a christian my entire life and I've had "no sex before marriage" shoved down my throat since I knew what sex was, and I agree with it.
But I don't think your a bad person or anything for doing "it". I just wanted to make sure you knew that. I mean I know kids my age and younger that have already had sex, and with people they forget about the next week!
Not to mention all the teen abortions and abandonments. So I think that you're doing good, you obviously love your daughter and are able as (well as willing) to taking care of her. I think that's what really matters in the long run.
I'm sorry that people find the need to attack you and Drew for this.

-I feel kind of left out with all of the baby talk and etc... It's kind of weird to think that some day I'll be with you guys in all of that stuff! But I guess until then I'll have to get all the information off of you so I know what to do when that happens!
I've never dated before (I'm not allowed to) so I think real life is going to come as a kind of shock to me. Work, college, house, car, a limited supply of money, boyfriends. It's going to be crazy!
Not to mention trying to become a successful actress.
But you guys aren't here to listen to my problems, tell me all about your's. This stuff fascinates me!
And anyone out there who knows anything new about Paul, please spill it. We're all being forced to talk about us!
Well I guess I'll talk to you guys later. Take care!
-Chelsea-

Hello to everyone. I'm new here and I just wanted to say hi and I support Paul Hamm. I agree with Chelsea, Hannah, and Tam and I'd like to know some more about y'all. I live in South Carolina, I have my whole life. I'm 18 and thinking about college currently. I love gymnastics. I'm about 5'5'' and I have black hair and green eyes (thought it was pretty cool that Drew did too!).
So that's a little about me. What about you?

Hi it's me again.
Tam I was wondering, not to be rude or anything at all, but are you a guy or a girl? I can't tell by your name, sorry.
Have a great night y'all!
Love you Paul!!! Your totally awesome. And soooo hot!

Just so you will have a place safe to discuss about Paul Hamm, gymnastics or anything that you might be interested I have set-up a group all PaulHamm@yahoogroups.com.

Post message: PaulHamm@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: PaulHamm-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: PaulHamm-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: PaulHamm-owner@yahoogroups.com

It is open for public but I have a right to restricted and control the membership later if it is getting out of control.

Within 2 weeks, I would like to turn over the management of this group to someone like Chelsee or Hannah because I have no time for additional responsibility.

Got to go � Good night everyone.

Tam

Tam...you might want to consider Chelsea before you consider me! haha, as you know...I myself have no time. There is no way I can take on even one more little responsibilty. But thank you for considering me!!
Also..I think that is so great that you have a child of your own. This world could use more parents like you Tam!!
Chelsea....I would encourage you to "wait" until you get married before having children, or sex. Its a huge responsibilty...and needs to be taken seriously. Drew was my first...and i got pregnant from that one time....and am reeping the 'benefits' from it. By benefits...I mean moving to an Army base to be more equipped to support my child, we are talking diapers...lots of em, sleepless nights, spit up, doctor visits...all withing the first 3 months! Tam would know more about this stuff then I do. but the point is..wait!! There is someone out there who wants to wait just as bad as you do! So wait for him!
Newgrl...Welcome!!! We cant promise that what we discuss on this site is always relevant to Paul Hamm...but we can guarantee a good time!! And you've got people here to watch your back for you, just as tam and chelsea have done for me!!
Thank you for sharing that little bit about yourself. Its hard to picture who you are talking to without knowing what they look like. I would be interested in Chelsea and Tam describing themselves just a little!! Please!!!
As for me...you can prob guess a little at how I look. I am 6'0 even, I have dark curly hair, very fair skinned. my mom is straight from Ireland, so I inherited the fair skin!! :( Anywho...that about sums me up!! My daughter looks exactly like Drew with red hair. That she got from my side. She has his eyes, and her skin is a dark as an Indian. thats just about everything about me!!
So Tam and Chelsea tell us a little about you guys!!

I still havent heard anything about Paul. :(
OH!! Newgrl...you said Paul was hot. Well..I have this guy in my class named Steve who is Idendticle to Paul! We all call him Paul..thats how similar he is! Same height, build, hair...everything! I just found that interesting.
Well....I had better get going. Baby is crying. Have a great day everyone!!

Did not hear much after the decision on Sept 27, 2004. I believe he was in the The 2004 Rock 'N' Roll Gymnastics Championships Tour with Shannon Miller and you can get more info from their official site.

And here is the brief description of the famous decision:

Highlights of CAS Decision Regarding Gymnastics Olympic Gold Medal Appeal, And Facts Presented on Behalf of Paul Hamm at CAS Hearing In Lausanne, Switzerland On Sept. 27
CAS Decision:
The Court of Arbitration for Sport dismissed the appeal of Mr. Yang.
In dismissing the appeal, the CAS panel held that the rules of gymnastics required that any protest related to an alleged judging error must be made during the competition, on the field of play, and the Korean delegation failed to do so.
The CAS panel stated (on pp. 42 and 44) that "no one can be certain how the competition in question would have turned out had the official's decision been different," that a different outcome would be "something in [the] realm of speculation, not of certainty." The CAS panel noted that the Federation of International Gymnastics "sought to persuade Hamm to surrender his gold medal to Yang when there was no reason for him to do so."
Facts presented at CAS hearing on Sept. 27 in Lausanne, Switzerland by Kelly Crabb and Max Olson of Morrison & Foerster on behalf of Paul Hamm:
First, we'll never know who would have won the gold medal if Mr. Yang and his coaches had made a timely and successful inquiry. Morrison & Foerster argued that the sport of gymnastics is not played in a vacuum. There was still one rotation to go. Gymnasts routinely track their status on the leader board and the point spread between competitors. They adjust their approach and their attitude with respect to what is coming up based on this information. The Korean delegation's failure to make a timely protest deprived Mr. Hamm of any chance to make adjustments - even though Mr. Hamm earned the right to go last in the competition by placing first in the preliminary round. No one knows how the athletes would have reacted. No one will ever know how any inquiry would have been resolved on the field of play. It would be absurd, despite these facts, to take the gold medal away from the declared winner and give it to someone else who might or might not have won it.
The rules of gymnastics do not contemplate scoring adjustments based on hindsight review after the competition is over. Morrison & Foerster argued that artistic gymnastics, like virtually all sports, has no tradition of next-day second-guessing. Each competition ends when a winner is declared. Gymnastics is a complex sport, a fundamental part of which is that judges respond to performances in real time. It is expected that there will be some honest judging mistakes, just as in other sports. But the result of a Saturday night basketball game is not going to change just because a Sunday morning television broadcast shows a slow-motion video proving that a critical three-point basket should have only been given two points. To change the standings based on a review after the competition is over leaves wide open the door to endless next-day, technology-assisted debates by lawyers and will negatively change the nature of gymnastics.
Yang Tae Young received more than a fair score for his parallel bars routine. Morrison & Foerster argued that there is no genuine dispute that Mr. Yang had an impermissible fourth "stop" held for longer than one second on his parallel bars routine, giving rise to a mandatory 2 tenths of a deduction from his score. (Several witnesses testified that there were at least four such stops by Mr. Yang.) At least two judges mistakenly failed to take note of this. If after-the-competition video review of judging decisions is going to become the rule, then an account must be made for all mistakes discovered in the process. A recalculation of Mr. Yang's total score for the All-Around, adjusting for both judging mistakes, results in no change to Mr. Hamm's standing as the gold medalist. Simply stated, Mr. Yang was not injured by the start value issue. To change the standings in the Men's All-Around based on one scoring adjustment while ignoring another would be unreasonable and totally unfair and prejudicial to Mr. Hamm.
To have ruled for Mr. Yang would have been unfair to Mr. Hamm and would have forever damaged the sport of gymnastics. Competition winners, like Mr. Hamm, would never be allowed to rely on their victory until all appeals were finally arbitrated in legal proceedings, perhaps long after the competition is over. Qualified gymnastics judges would eventually lose interest in the sport, as their good faith determinations in real time would never be free from after-the-event second-guessing. The sport will eventually lose its public appeal, as the drama of competition would give way to technical, legalistic arguments after a winner is declared. Morrison & Foerster LLP www.mofo.com is a leading international law firm with approximately 1,000 lawyers in 19 offices, in key technology and finance centers around the world.

Tam

And I also found another good article about Paul Hamm, hope this would make Hannah and Chelsea happy to read and learn more about Paul Hamm.

Take care,
Tam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Paul Hamm's no ham. Just a hard-working gymnast.

America's new gold medalist leaped into the sport at age 7. The family farm in Waukesha, Wis., was his gym; Hamm and twin brother Morgan employed an old maple tree as a pommel horse and bounced on a trampoline in a barn.

Thanks to their talent, drive and resourcefulness, the sibs became the first twins to make the U.S. gymnastics team in 2000. They qualified again four years later, reporting to Athens this summer for an Olympics now infamous for scandals and scoring controversies.

Paul, 21, literally fell into the spotlight; viewers worldwide gasped as the farmboy slipped during his vault landing and crashed into the judges' table. The Midwesterner set his jaw and staged a world-class comeback that left fans spellbound. His focus earned him the first gold medal awarded to an American male gymnast in the all-around event.

America was still goose bump-y when the FIG (the ruling body of gymnastics) sent a letter to Hamm that stated the judges had miscalculated Korean gymnast Yang Tae-young's score by a fraction of a point. Officials proposed Hamm return his medal; the U.S. Olympic Committee called the suggestion "outrageous."

Hamm, not one to sit idle, is headlining the 2004 Rock & Roll Gymnastics Championship Tour while authorities debate the scoring issue. His castmates include twin/2004 silver medalist Morgan, three-time Olympian Blaine Wilson and award-winning gymnast Shannon Miller. The event (Sunday at Allstate Arena) fuses hip-hop with athletics; the Hamms perform a routine to Usher and take part in a swinging salute to "The Matrix."

Hamm, who declines most interviews, phoned INK to play 20 Questions after learning students at Lakeshore Gymnastics and the girls' gymnastic team at Chesterton High School had submitted inquiries.

1. What's your nickname?

I have a couple. One would be "Pueblo," like the Indian village. One of my good friends just made it up one day. The other is "Pauly Pockets." My girlfriend said it one day - after the Polly Pockets doll - and it just caught on.

2. That answers our next question! So what is your girlfriend's name?

Lauren.

3. Is she a gymnast, too?

She did take gymnastics, but she stopped when she was pretty young.

4. How do your parents and friends tell you and Morgan apart? You two are near-identical.

They can look at our faces and tell very easily. They can't tell by our voices!

5. Who or what inspired you to be a gymnast?

My sister started gymnastics before us. She's three years older. I saw her doing it and it looked like a ton of fun.

6. Do you come from an athletic family?

Yeah. My father was an All-American diver. My sister was an NCAA championship gymnast on the balance beam.

7. Is it true your father wanted you to get into figure skating?

Nahhhhhh!

8. How often do you practice?

Before the Olympics, I practiced six days a week for about four hours a day.

9. At what point did you commit to becoming an Olympic gymnast?

Ever since I was a young kid, it was a dream of mine. I started getting more serious around 13. I made the national team when I was 15 and I was really committed to making the 2000 Olympics. Both Morgan and I made it. Our best finish was fifth with the team that time.

10. During the all-around competition this summer, you wiped out in the fourth event (the vault) and slipped to 12th place. What happened?

I think I was just really tired that day. It was my third day of competing. My legs felt a little bit weak and I didn't get a very good jump on the springboard. I wasn't any more nervous than I normally was.

11. How did you recover your composure?

After my vault, I was a little bit upset. I figured it cost me my chance at a medal. Then I looked at the scoreboard and decided I had a chance at the bronze so I decided to go out and do the best performance of my life and hold nothing back.

12. What went through your mind when you had to wait 10 minutes (during the horizontal-bar exercise) when the crowd was booing the low score for Russian gymnast Alexei Nemov?

When it was happening, I was thinking ... basically ... I was shocked it was happening in the first place. I'd never seen anything like it. Then I was thinking, "Why is this happening to ME, after all I've been through?"

13. Despite everything, you performed flawlessly on the high and parallel bars and nabbed the gold. Then the FIG proposed you hand the medal over to the South Korean gymnast. What was your reaction?

My first reaction when I heard that was disbelief. I couldn't believe they were making some of those statements in the letter. I thought, how unfair, to be placing all the pressure on me.

14. Are you still getting pressured? No. No one's pressuring me right now. And no one's specifically asked me to do anything besides the FIG. This whole thing is still lingering, slightly.

There's going to be a court hearing at the end of this month.

15. What's it like to compete with and tour with your twin brother?

It's really awesome, sharing this whole journey with someone like your brother.

We started gymnastics when we were so young and have gone through this whole process together. It's just been so special.

16. What was the last fight you had with Morgan about?

Probably about cleaning up our apartment this morning!

17. What would you say is your best event?

My best event is high bar or floor. I'm world champion of floor and have a silver medal on high bar.

18. What do you do in your free time?

Well, when I'm not training, I go to movies, go golfing, play tennis. My brother, Morgan, has a potter's wheel so we occasionally do that. He's good, actually.

19. Where do you keep your gold medal?

My gold medal is at home in Ohio in a safe place. I may end up moving it somewhere else. Just for more safety. A lot of people keep theirs in safety deposit boxes. I may do that.

20. Any parting advice for young gymnasts?

Just find whatever you really enjoy about your sport. Work hard with it. Never give up, just like I didn't with my Olympic competition. You never know what could happen.

Molly Woulfe can be reached at mwoulfe@nwitmes.com or at (219) 852-4329.

Tam..
That is so awesome!! thank you for posting that! We were in dire need of a subject change! hahaha. Thanx for that. Both posts were just what I was looking for. Excellent job Tam!
~hannah~

Hannah,

Glad I was able to make you happy.

Just a thought, with a formal group we might be able to invite Paul and/or Morgan to chat with all of us one of these day if the group is big enough and they like our exchanges.

Have a nice weekend.

Tam

Tam...guess what!?!?!?! You are never going to believe this!!! OH MY WORD! I jsut got home from work, but guess who picked me up???
Apparently the Army sent home a bunch of Rangers for the holidays b\c Drew is sitting next to me! he wants me to personally thank Chelsea and Tam. He says he covets your prayers, and thank you for your support for not just him, but for all the Troops over in Iraq.
He doesnt know how long he will be home, but at most 1 week. So please pray for us, and especially the baby. She seems to be a little afraid of him right now.
needless to say I wont be on for a couple of days, I plan to make the most of this week. So I will catch up with you all in a while! Have a great Thanksgiving everyone! I know I will!!
~Hannah

Hannah :-)

Wow � it is a nice Thanksgiving present from God! Enjoy the time and have a sweetest family Thanksgiving dinner.

Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone.

Tam

Hey Hannah that's great news! I'm so happy for you! Have a great Thanksgiving, I know you will, God bless. Tell Drew hi and thanks for everything. I'll keep praying for him and all his buddies in the army!:)

Hey Newgrl, glad you checked us out!
I guess I'll describe myself a little. I'm about 5'3''(short I know, Hannah you'd be a giant next to me!) 114 pounds, I'm trying to get down to 110. I have dark blond hair (it's curly too, and long) and brown eyes. People say I'm pretty, so I guess I'm pretty!;)
That's about it. I currently live in Virginia but I was born and raised in New Jersey (and New York). Some of my fam came from Ireland too, but that was a little ways back!

So Tam share a little about yourself, we'd all like to be able to picture you.
Oh and thanks for the Paul info, much apprieciated.

I guess I'll talk to you guys soon, Happy Thanksgiving!

-Chelsea-

Ok � I was hope that you all can join the PaulHamm@yahoogroups.com where we can discuss little more personal stuff like the question being asked. You can join and unsubscribe as you see it fit no string attached. I rather tell you more in that forum that this public forum where others might not care.

Another plus from this formal group is we can ask Paul to come and chat with us later ;-)

Sincerely
Tam

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Hi Newgrl ;-)

Just read your post ;-) How did I missed. Sorry!!!

I am 100% guy. And by the way, I am living in Greenville, SC which city are you living in SC?

Take care and once again Happy Thanksgiving.

Tam
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tam I was wondering, not to be rude or anything at all, but are you a guy or a girl? I can't tell by your name, sorry.
Have a great night y'all!
Love you Paul!!! Your totally awesome. And soooo hot!

Posted by November 18, 2004 06:50 PM

Iraq is not about liberation. It is a resource grab and an attempt to reinforce American security and supremacy.

UR Clueless, are you going to empty your savings account and send your family and friends to liberate Rwanda, Suda, North Korea, Cuba and a whole host of other countries?

Playing world cop for everyone everywhere is not feasible. It costs billions in tax payer dollars and human life. I think there were better ways to handle the situation, including researching alternatives to oil and increasing intelligence to target terrorist groups.

You guys are incredibly simple. It's too bad you will never wake up and smell the coffee. Your view of the world is simplistic and uninformed.

I support this country but there are other ways of going about things. And that's all I have to say.

Non-simpleton!

2:17 AM on the day after Thanksgiving, you must have been lonely!

Before accusing us simple-minded should you get your facts about us or perhaps getting to know us a little? Just because your point of view different, does that made yours right and you are better or more intelligent. It might prove otherwise.

Base on your email I don't think you have done enough research on the issue otherwise you would not have that point of view. But this forum is not for politics so I am not going there.

But in anyway, we noted your point of view.

Tam

BTW, I am enjoying my morning coffee right now and it is smell so great. I love my country I love my freedom and I love my money and the opportunity to be the next billionaire if I am willing to work hard for it.

Nope, wasn't lonely. Spent thanksgiving with friends.

I value freedom as well. I just don't believe that warrants turning a blind eye to what goes on in the rest of the world and failing to understand the real issues at hand.

Bye now!

Since you started.

Let's hear your point of view of why you thinking I turn a blind eye to what goes on in the rest of the world and what do you think the real issue we, American, are facing today?

In my opinion criticizing without real solution is irresponsible and put the world interest above American interest, as American, that is also irresponsible.

Couldn't wait to hear from you.

Tam

Well, American interests and other countries' interests do not necessarily have to be in conflict do they? If America no longer relied on oil, we could leave disarm the middle east and leave forever.

Bashing democrats without doing even a medium amount of research is foolish and doesn't impress educated people.

By the way, did you notice that every state that got attacked on 9/11 voted for Kerry? Did you know that the average salaries and IQs in those states are the highest in the country?

Yep, read it and weep.

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test

usa

censor

1. Failed to understand what this war was about.

2. Failed to differentiate between - given refuge by the and .

3. Failed to see where you failed on your own.

I know this is blunt, but it's true. At some point everyone needs to hear some honesty.

test
iraq
afraid

Failed to understand what this war was about. Failed to differentiate between Afghanistan and Saddam. Failed to see where you failed on your own. I know this is blunt, but it's true. At some point everyone needs to hear some honesty.

Go USA.

taliban is bad

McCarthy, Afghanistan, Taliban, free

1. Failed to understand what this war was about.

2. Failed to differentiate between Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein, of Iraq.

3. Failed to see where you failed on your own.

I know this is blunt, but it's true. At some point everyone needs to hear some honesty.

Failed to understand what this war was about, to differentiate between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and to see where you failed on your own.

I know this is blunt, but it's true. At some point everyone needs to hear some honesty.

guess you don't believe in freedom of speech.

Hey TEST, I believe in freedom of speech. And I wonder why are you so afraid of being yourself. Everyone does have a right to express his or her point of view without attack other people point of view without merit. How many screenname are you current use to hide your true identity?

And OPEN MIND, such a beautiful screenname but that does not change your true self. You are as closed-minded as Hitler or Sadam. You so proud of your intelligent level but I bet your own IQ is very low. Have you look at the national election result, don�t you getting upset from see the whole country, county by county turning RED. And you are wrong, the more I read the more I smile because we did the right thing and we ejected your point of view and frankly I wonder if you do hold a real job.

See you in 4 years if you able to support yourself by then.

Tam

Ha ha, tam. nice try.

I do have a job and if you look at the blue states, they were all attacked. NY, DC, PA.

You guys can't admit when you are wrong, and you are just plain wrong.

oh yea, i'm not saying it was wrong to remove Sadam, maybe even assasinate if necessary. but linking him to 9/11 is just wrong according to the facts. and to say that liberation was the sole reason, also wrong. adios!

Cloded minded :-)

I am willing to be wrong if my country can be better and people like you have no place in America.

spin it anyway you wish. But the bottom line is you LOST and we don't expect much from losers! LOL

See you in 4.

Tam

you're the one who is close minded. you want everyone in this country to think and act like you.

see ya close-minded!

do You feel better now? name calling is the last resort for a person who can't argue and is WRONG. even if we lost, you will always be misguided in your views and WRONG

if you want to get rid of people like us, then you would have to get rid of 49% of the country that voted for the other guy. And since you care about IQ, what color is MA, CT, home of Harvard, Yale etc? BLUE.

The states in the south and midwest have less people living there which is why they get less electoral votes. Hence more of them are needed to win and election. The majority is not always right and in this case is only 2% larger.

Having only one type of person in a country is called Facism. So who is more like hitler now?

Exactly. I don't like arguing but I can't believe the number of self-righteous knitwits who parade around like they are smarter than Harvard graduates when it so obvious they are the complete opposite.

Honestly, you had it coming because you sound ridiculous. If I were you I would stop spouting sappy quotes and be quiet. Maybe you could actually try to learn something from others for a change.

That was for Tam and company.

Yep, PLM, 123, YACM, OM, Test, wow:

I felt like I am discussing this topic with a bunch of 5 years old students who could not recognize their true name and must change his name to another imaginable friend to hide his own identity.

Just because the state has big school name does not make a whole state more intelligent. Just like if you have a doctor in your family made you a college graduate. You are so simple minded to think such thing possible.

And accused others on the very same act you are doing is not just wrong but that is unspeakable. And until you are acting as an adult I rather not waste my times on you so this is my last message to you Mr. Nobody (or whatever screen name you might used again).

I dare you to put your energy and IQ level to good used.

Tam

sorry to remind you that you started with the hitler comparisons and kerry bashing. if you can't take it, don't give it.

it's the holidays so i'm point out all of your errors anymore. it's just too bad so many people refuse to see their faults.

Yep,

I always hated when I was accused doing something I didn�t even by kid. You said that I start the Kerry bashing, could you point out when and which post I did that. I did talk little bit about him many days ago but not lately and your guys starting this type of politics post in this forum not I.

Trust me, I can take any thing you can throw at me. Now give it your best shot but before you do please get your facts straight.

Tam

Oh my word! Some people are soooo naaive!!! I think you all know where I stand when it comes to Politics and the war. (Tam...Drew and I were married the 20th, just fam. and close friends, I already had the dress so it worked out!)

I think SEVERAL people need to do a little more research on the facts, and quite getting your info from Dan Rather. I am not sure who, but there have been a couple posts about 49% of the country voting for Kerry, especially in the high IQ areas. LOOK AGAIN! The 49% is the going by electoral college, NOT county by county majority!!! Look at michigan for example. Mostly red, but the bigger cities went to Kerry, so Kerry won MI. But clearly a red state!!! You all need to look at the county by county map and see who realllyyyyy won the popular vote! Dont even give me that 49% crap. LOOK AGAIN!!! Our country is RED!
And as far as the war goes...how misinformed you all are. Its obvious Dan Rather is your hero! You prb still believe all that junk about Bush dont you? As for Saddam..please tell me who is saying Saddam is tied with 9/11???? We had originally thought that, but NO ONE is saying that now! SO GET OFF IT! Saddam has said that given the chance he WOULD attack us!! Tell me again why we shouldnt be in this war? If you want to just turn the other cheek and ignore Saddam and the terrorists over there, then by all means do us a huge favor and get out of our country!! Because as I far as I know the REST of America wants a little safety!!! And lets review....how do we stay safe? We eliminate terrorists!! Good greif. As I said...if you want to turn the other cheek..then take your views and leave my country.

And as far as Tam and supposedly Kerry bashing...he never even used Kerry's name!
But since he didnt..allow me! Kerry was the biggest mistake next to Gore to ever disgrace the Presidents company! Kerry needs to go back to homo land and stay there.

Wow!!! I am so happy for you especially for Emma. Your post just ended my day with good note. :-)

And thank you very much for defending me, but I don�t need my big gun fighting with kids.

Got to go �

99,
Tam

Wow, you are nuts. It's probably because you are tied to the army. But there are non-nutty people in the army I would think.

I am for eliminating terrorism but not for misunderstanding the issues, which a lot of you did until recently.

I'm so glad I live in NY, which for all of its' toughness is progressive and liberal, and far away from all of you. I assume you live somewhere which wasn't attacked.

Michigan went to Kerry because more people live in those big cities, Einstein. Ever population density?

Check CNN, Kerry won 49% (48.59% rounded up) OF THE POPULAR vote and 47% (rounded up 46.8%) of the electoral vote. 99 precincts reporting.

So far I haven't heard of the terrorists attacking small towns. Don't bother with politics, talk about turkey basting.

I'm not sure you can learn or accept things you don't want but you're welcome.

Sorry, I meant to say, "Ever heard of population density?"

Hannah, your husband is brave but does not sit in the whitehouse. I am sure the person who devised the electoral map knows more about elections than either you or me. So calm down and stop saying undemocratic things like telling people to leave the country.

Hey genius (aka yep, 123 and many more nickname),

So you are living in NY, are you taxi driver or you just live near by the WTC which might damage your brain. A simple thing like Bush won the election that your guys are unable to accept, therefore stop preaching us about not able to learn new thing or accept new thing.

And Hannah was right, Bush won 95% of all county, so 49% of popular vote is somewhat questionable? NY Times reported 48.05% voted for Kerry. Here is the link
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/elections2004/2004President.html

But one thing for certain, President Bush WON. So either you should accept it and support him or go elsewhere to do the damage.

Tam

No, I'm a professional who knows better than to post my personal details on a message board. I do accept Bush won, but I now know it's hopeless talking to you.

ps: NY is even more liberal than I am. I don't have to go anywhere. Bye!

123,

If it is hopeless why are you continue posting your reply? And tell me little more about your professional job, what is your responsibility and which school you graduated from?

Oh, and thank you for acccept the election result hope your other imaginable friends accpted as well. Problem solved. No more discussion needed for this topics, let's continue talking about our main topic - Paul Hamm.

Tam Nguyen

Yep, 123,hey genius...
I totally disagree with you on the popular vote. Technically...yes it was 48-49% for Kerry. But as I said...look at the county by county and you will see our country is CLEARLY a red one.
But I noticed you never responded to what I had to say about the war are 9/11. Well..actually you said that I obviously did not live in a state or place that was attacked. Your right. I dont. I think that is a blessing. But I hardly see how that would tarnish my stance on what I believe, I mean...can yougive me an example of how that should/would change my thinking??? And how was my view "nutty"???? And that somehow has to do with the fact that my husband is in the Army? Wow. How lame.

And Tam...thank you so much! IT was great, but I will tell you about it at a different time!!!

Ugh, do I have to spell everything out for you?

1. You are nuts because you resort to name calling.

2. You live in small town, so you will not be attacked yet are concerned about safety.

3. Those counties have hardly any people living in them - probably less than 10 000.

4. The army has brainwashed you.

123 or whatever :-(

Hannah should reply back to you soon, you can count on that.

But I am little curious, are you 123 or yep or ps or OM or whatever? Please don't tell me you have been talking to your self all day in this board. Now I am wondering what kind of job you do?

But here is my take.
1. You are nuts because you resort to name calling.
>>> I believed you also doing that, I don�t have time to check but since I join this board I do not recall Hannah has done that.

2. You live in small town, so you will not be attacked yet are concerned about safety.
>>> You are so wrong about this. They would kill even an ant if it getting in their way. So just because you are in small town that does not mean you don�t want to kill you. So your point is meaningless.

3. Those counties have hardly any people living in them - probably less than 10 000.
>>> Are you saying that all the county voted for Kerry has more than 10,000 people?

4. The army has brainwashed you.
>>> How could they, she does not serve in the Army. Just because she is now married to a soldier does not mean that she always listen to Army radio or read all Army manual. She seems like an educated and reasonable person.

Once again you just talk non-sense. Next time come back with a reply and please keep one screen name so we can keep track of who saying what.

Tam Nguyen

Honestly, I don't ever plan on meeting you so why do you want to know my name? I graduated from a top 20 school in the country, and that's all I'm going to tell you.

Hannah said Kerry should go to "homo land" a few posts ago. And you attempted to push me around in true Bush fashion. I didn't do those things.

I know now you are bad people who will lie to support your agendas. I thought you could understand reason, but you refuse. You occupy this board more than anyone and those posts have accumulated over a few weeks.

And yes, the larger and more cosmopolitan the city, the more likey it is liberal in these times.

Goodbye.

Honestly, you have not been honest in your whole life so why start now. LOL

Actually I don't care much about people like you since you are useless to me. You are negative thinker and negative contributor.

I don't believe you even graduate from college since your logic has not been stable. I know you hate Bush and love Kerry and think you are smarter than everyone. But how smart can you be when you let a traitor leading you blindly in support him not knowing who he is?

But remember this walk the talk; put your energy in good use. Do something positive and good for the country.

And one last thing, just to be honest to yourself if you could not even do that you are in big trouble.

Bye!

Tam

PS ... Your posts accumulated more than 50% of this board and I only posted 15-20 posts.

Um, I don't hate Bush as much as many people I know. I don't assume Kerry is perfect. I am positive about most things, but I also have my eyes open. You are the illogical one. Anyone can see that. I have a diploma from a great school and I don't care what you think.

123,

Here is the link to the 2004 election result county by county.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

OK, you did graduate from High School and you might even be a positive thinker but thru out this board you have been so negative. Why was that?

From now on try to stick to 123 noone will ever know who you are but at least when I read your post I knew it is from 123.

Honesty is the best policy.

With love,
Tam

Well, I live in NYC remember? It's a tough crowd and we have to be savvy just to get by. My good friend is a huge liberal and she gets me excited sometimes. Well, although we feel differently about the issues, you guys actually sound warm and friendly. I graduated from a great college, but feel I should get a masters as well. Good luck to you as well and take care.

I meant degree, not diploma, that's what I meant. I'm being complelety honest. I studied hard to get it. Go watch the Rockafeller lighting if you want to feel in the holiday spirit. :-)

I am back!

Good morning!

Thanks Jay for blocking the unwanted and unknown poster. Hopefully now we have a clean board.

For starter, I wish every one a merry Christmas and happy new year. It is only 3 week away :-) and anyone knows any news about Paul Hamm?

Tam

Jay is a liberal and didn't block anyone. All US citizens hav the right to say whatever they want. Paul was in NYC for the Rockefeller center. Please go and get a life.

Jay is a liberal and didn't block anyone. All citizens have the right to say whatever they want.

So that what liberal does? Why then they blocking people from voting on Nov 2, 2004. I believe MOVEON.ORG is liberal organization right?

But let�s keep this board clean. Let�s just talk about Paul Hamm, shall we?

Ok...seeing if this works for the 4TH TIME!

Ok...good. Well..I am not quite sure were to start. I have been trying to post for a couple days and it didnt work. So here it goes again.
123...you mentioned that I was nutty, and brainwashed by the Army. I'm curious as to why you would think that. How was anything I said "nutty"???Because I said "homoland"?? How was that namecalling? I wasnt aware you could call a place a name. I wasnt saying Kerry was a homo, but thats what he stands for. And as far as brainwashed...I think not.
My husband is in the Army yes....I do not speak with his commanders, and I hardly speak with anyone other then the family that lives across the street. I am affiliated with the army onyl by Drew...and he has never tried to convince me of anything.
Let me explain this is a little more.

When Drew came back from Iraq...he was totally different. He had to do things he doesnt even want to talk about, much less perform. I am sure there was some killings, but he refuses to talk about it, he just said that everything he thought he stood for he felt he had to go against. He also said that for his country he would do it all over again, and not even think twice. He will do whatever is required of him, and if he thinks it adds to the safety of America then so be it. There are some things he had to do in duty that I dont agree with, and thats only the stuff he told me. What I disagree with, Drew believes in. He has never once tried to sway me either way. I know thye have to do things to people I would rather not hear about...but thats war. You either kill or be killed. You need to defend yourself. And I am so proud of him for that!!! For doing what he knew he had to do even though it required him to go against what he thought was "right". Thats sacrafice. So no..I am not even close to brainwashed.
Tam...Drew was sent back to Iraq yesterday morning. He doesnt know where, but he knew that he was being "dropped" into a "battle" by what the pilot said. I havent heard from him.

Actually I was waiting for someone to response to Hannah's post. Just don't want them to feel like we gang up on them. But I am going home and just want to wish everyone a wonderful weekend. Let's go shopping and pick out a nice gift for love one shall we?

And Hannah, I sure know how much you and Emma miss him. But hang in there happy days are coming soon. And, please, don't let those uneducated comments bother you, they said it because they just lost and hurt and unable to comprehend what it is happen to them. But trust me their efforts and thoughts are meaningless so they are. Just laugh and use your reason with reasonable people. Base on my experience they just hit and run and have no factual facts to support their saying ... so just take care of your self and be happy.

Let's talk about Paul Hamm, shall we?

Why are you so obsessed with Paul Hamm? You're a married man, not a 15 year old valley girl.

Hannah is not the problem. Your political beliefs aren't even the problem. Your small town hypocrisy is the problem. Your good wishes are completely phoney. Why would any terrorist bomb a small town with more sheep than people? And by they way, that's called sarcasm, since you take everything so literally. Point is, it makes more sense for them to bomb economic and population centers.

Get as mad as you want. You can post on this board for the rest of your boring life. And I'm not even an extreme liberal.

And by the way, you're not hurting anyone. You're just annoying.

Hey Jester (aka yep, 123, HG and many more nickname),

You are unique individual and I bet if you ask your mom, she would say you came in to this world with both of your legs out first :-(

And you don�t have friend, you are a loner in this world, that also explain why you have to hide under so many nickname!!!

I should not have waste any more times with people like you since you are one track minded and mostly you are running only one speed with 1
track. But just to help your parent to give you little needed guidance here we go �

You are so backward, even when you first came into this world and in your thinking, I was sincere with my wish since I was taught that way, you couldn't understand and never was treated as such, that was why you are confused. And you thought I was phony. Since no one ever been that nice to you.

Just like Kerry was phony but you thought he was sincere and support him during 2004 election.

Most or all your assumptions in this world were and are not correct. Just as you thought I am married just because I said I have a little
daughter.

At the beginning of time when this board was created, the main subjects were Paul Hamm and the controversy event. Confusingly you thought I might be gay just because I want to keep the board on the right track. And avoiding on personal attack on other people point of view, just as you and you (your other nickname) keep abuse this board to land uncalled personal attack on Hannah, Chelsea and me.

Do you have any interest in sport? have you ever watch Michael Jordan playing basketball or Mike Tyson box? And as a sport lover who happen to be a man, you are condemn us from discuss about other male athletic, oh how shallow your mind are. You must not feel confident enough about yourself. You might as well get out of the closet.

And lastly you accused me of being annoying, did you noticed that no one on this board care much about what you think except of course your
Imaginable friends. Let�s do a small test to prove my point if there are any female on this board agree with jester please speak-up. There you see � you have no friend and you are so annoying specially your way of name-calling where there is no need for it. So go back to your taxi cab and be yourself.

Tam

First off, I am a female. Does that shock you?

Second, I never said you were gay; I just asked why you were so interested in P. Hamm, cause it most of the people that interested are girls.

Third, I don't have a taxi cab to go back to, because I work in an office and I graduated from a good college. I'm just not a show-off. I know you won't believe me on this, but who cares. It is still true.

Fourth, you are phoney because you send strangers sappy, good wishes and then take it back as soon as you think they leave.

Finally, I just wanted to know how you guys in the south and mid-west think. Most people up here agrees with me politically. And many of the republicans up here are more intelligent and articulate than the you guys, I'm sorry to say, so I respect them and often we are friends, in real live, not on the internet. In addition, you are right. I don't party have millions of fake friends. But I know the difference between an acquaintance and friend. My real friends are my real friends and I'm happy that way.

If you are female, where was your operation? And truly tell us something only a female would know but not a male.

>>>Fourth, you are phony because you send strangers sappy, good wishes and then take it back as soon as you think they leave.
You write a lot but do you have any facts to support what you said? Prove it.

>>> Finally, I just wanted to know how you guys in the south and mid-west think. Most people up here agree with me politically. And many of the republicans up here are more intelligent and articulate than the you guys, I'm sorry to say, so I respect them and often we are friends, in real live, not on the internet.
That is your stereo-type, what made you think people from the North more intelligent than South? Is there any logical reason or your guys up there just made them up and never able to show any proof to support it. I am from the South and so far I am more intelligent than you and make more money and happier than you.

>>>In addition, you are right. I don't party have millions of fake friends. But I know the difference between an acquaintance and friend. My real friends are my real friends and I'm happy that way.
If you have friends why are you so negative and mis-trust? I do not believe it for a minute.

Why do you have so many nicknames?

You know, I'm not exactly sure what is so backward about stating the facts.

The fact is, the states and cities that voted for Kerry are more populous and more educated. Why? Because people with ambition flock to good universities and businesses and they reside in big cities, and certain states.

Also, Kerry isn't perfect, because nobody is. At least he served in an actual war, which is better than nothing.

I found some you to be pushy and overbearing, kind of like Bush, except worse! Even he himself is more likeable. You guys kept ranting about how stupid Gore and Clinton and what good were they. When someone stepped up to the plate you threw out derogatory remarks like true Bush-fanatics and refused to concede any points to the other side, even when they were true.

I think you guys enjoy being the way you are. Uninformed, unreasonable and self-congratulating, all day, every day. So go on and be that way. I'm sure you'll be happy that way.

Oh my gosh. You are utterly ridiculous.

I am an educated female, who speaks her mind. Hm, is that not encouraged in the South?

You don't know how much I earn. Money isn't my main goal, but one day I plan to earn a good enought amount, and I make enough a decent amount for my age. But, a lot of the people in NYC are financial types, earning millions more than you and dispproving of Bush because he is not a brainiac.

You said you wished me and my family the best and then thanked Jay for blocking me, "the unwanted poster" as soon as you thought I left.

ps: Everybody, nobody how different from you has at least one or two people who they confide in and are friends with.

Also, happiness is not related to a ceratin income.

I am only discussing politics here.

Jester,

Since you are so smart, would you mind to re-read my previous post and answer it truly.

I need to go to our team meeting and should be back in 1-2 hours.

And here is something for you to think about while I am in my meeting, why you think Kerry joined the war in VN, then came back and start the anti-war movement, then running for Senate using his anti-war record, then running for President using his war record but never able to explain how he got those 3 PP in the shortest time in military history. Or and why he is meeting with our enemy while still serving as US officer.

Do little research and use your brain this time, would you? Don�t disappoint me this time ok, honey.

Aaw, you're doing your best to try and make me feel bad about myself, aren't you? Well, keep trying, because in a meeting of the minds with me, you would lose.

You were the playground bully in grade school, and you still are.

So Kerry's service appears shady. Are you telling me that Bush and Cheney are angels? That's funny.

you know what else is funny?

you are the backwards one, because you don't even understand the meaning of democracy. It means we have freedom of speech and freedom to disagree.

You want everyone in this country to behave exactly like you. That would be rather tragic, if you ask me, because you preach about good "moral values" when you aren't even married. What a sham.

I respect republicans who say they just want to keep all their money over ones that preach moral values, because at least the former are being HONEST. BTW, your rich republican friends don't care about you at all.

I answered every one of your questions, including the one about my different names. Go back and read carefully. It's because I don't feel like giving away my identity in a public forum. I also explained that all of those red states have less people in them, hence more of them are needed to match the blue states. But you STILL don't get it.

Anyway, whatever. I'm done here.

I am so disappointed in you! what kind of degree did you get from that big school of yours? Must be BS.

But you did make me laugh.

You actually don�t use your brain as all, hopefully you are better looking than your logic otherwise I don�t see how others can stand you in your office.

You attacked me first and you said that I am a bully, interesting? You start the name-calling campaign against Hannah, Chelsea and me, then you accused that we push you around. Hmmmmh?

President Bush never makes a claim on his service and it should not be an issue. But
Senator Kerry chose to make his Vietnam War record the centerpiece of his campaign for the presidency. You ought to do some reading about 2004 election when you don�t serve �clients�.

And you are WRONG!!! People from the North just as stupid as you are; they just think they are smart until they were challenged.

Tam

seeing if this works

Ok. This is just insane. It seems like every post I read from Jesters, 123, or whatever your name is...I am more amazed at the downright stupidity of some people!! I wasnt aware that people with your mentality could graduate from a "great" college!!! Honestly! I mean..I dont claim to be a braniac..but seems to me that this 123, jester person has not only different names, but split personalities as well. As I said earlier, I am still in school. But I have a good paying job, and I can admitt that I do NOT know everything. This person, whoever she is, cannot admitt that. She seems to think she knows everything, and you better not disagree with her. Tam is trying to still be nice and curteous, but Tam enough is enough. this person is just downright rude, obnoxious, simpleminded, SINGLEminded, and honestly if you cant quite with the personal attacks you need to get off this forum. I think I have done a decent job keeping my mouth shut and not responding to your rude and intrusive remarks so far, but these attacks are getting to be ridiculous.

First of all, thank you again Tam for your show os support. Yes it has been hard, we went for a quick honeymoon, but since Emma is only 4 months old now, we had to hurry back. So not much alone time before he had to leave. But it was a wonderful time while it lasted. I spoke to him last night, and he is in Fallujah.

I can NOT believe that one would even put in the same THOUGHT a comparison between Bush and Kerry's service. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? What planet are you from? Again...here we go with Dan Rather and his faithful harem. COngrats Jester, you made it in. Why dont you watch an UNBIASED news program and get some facts, nto a personal agenda. This reminds me of the scene in Remember the Titans, "Who's your daddy?" Answer that for me jester. Geesh.

Are you seriously critisizing Tam for wishing people well? I cannot stop laughing thinking when ever I think abot all the things you have said! Are you THAT deprived of human goodwill that you must critisize someone for wishing well a newly married woman and child who's husband was home for 1 week and is now in Fallujah?? OH MY WORD! Why dont you quite thinking about yourself and focus a little. Maybe then your life will take on some meaning.

Hannah,

Thank you for your support. I was kind of waiting to see when either you, Chelsea or newgirl jump in ...

But rest a sure that Jester will be back maybe in another nickname and who know next time she might even be undecided gender. Don't let that bother you Hannah, we are who we are and we just have to be happy with our selves and being little more positive.

Jester is very lonely and he/she definitely is needed someone help.

Good night everyone.

Tam

How I look isn't an issue where I work, Tam. We are all there to work and we are all able to do our jobs competently. We all get along fine and don't get in each other's way. Most of my co-workers vote democratic, because I live in NYC. They also roll their eyes at people like you.

hannah, whatever. I am not attacking tam for wishing you well, but for being false in his good wishes to people that disagree with him. You know this but enjoy indulging yourself or twisting things around or whatever.

I won't be back, you dingbats. I'm actually not as loud-mouthed as either of you. I just thought it was time self-absorbed people like you hear what others really think.

Good morning to every one except Jester,

Is that what you want to hear Jester?

I was laughing so hard just to think of your post. You have no job and you act like you do. You are a loner and act like you have friend who would be friend with you not even Kerry LOL

Your parent did teach you anything and I bet you were abused as a child ... by yourself.

I keep saying that you wouldn't come back BUT you keep coming back since you get no where to go but the library to signon to the internet to harass people and blaming them for your failure.

It is Christmas and your spirit is suck.

Another thing, I bet you are male, 40 -50 years old and might even be White too. And you got kick out of high school because of your attitude.

Just go elsewhere and don't waste anymore of our time Jester �

To everyone else, I am so sorry that I have been like Jester and after this poster I am going back to be me, I am much happier being me than that negative SOB Jester.

Sincerely,
Tam

And Jester one more thing, do you remember the following 2 posts:
--------------------------------
Jay is a liberal and didn't block anyone. All US citizens hav the right to say whatever they want. Paul was in NYC for the Rockefeller center. Please go and get a life.

Posted by: jester at December 2, 2004 07:46 AM

Jay is a liberal and didn't block anyone. All citizens have the right to say whatever they want.

Posted by: jester at December 2, 2004 07:48 AM
------------------------

If you believed that what you wrote then why attacked others when they did not share your view?

Tam

I was searching the net and found this fun website for you Hamm�s supporter.
http://www.livejournal.com/community/paulhamm/

And for Hannah, Chelsea and Newgrl here are 2 pictures you might like
http://imdb.com/gallery/virtual/bigin04/40
http://imdb.com/gallery/virtual/bigin04/64

Jester, where are you? I am missing your negative attitude so very much.

Tam

To all Paul Hamm supporter :-)

Just so you will have a safe place to discuss about Paul Hamm, gymnastics or anything that you might be interested I already set-up a group called PaulHamm@yahoogroups.com.

Post message: PaulHamm@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: PaulHamm-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: PaulHamm-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: PaulHamm-owner@yahoogroups.com

It is open for public but I have a right to restrict and control the membership later if it is getting out of control.

I just posted few more posts in PaulHamm@yahoogroups.com site and hope with everyone help we will have more stuff about Paul that we all can enjoy.

Hope to see you there.

Sincerely,
Tam Nguyen

Hey Chelsea and newgrl, where have you been?
Hanna, Hope everything is OK? How is Emma?

Tam...
wow you really told her/him/Jester/123/whatever their name is! Awesome job. I would have been on here, but I have been traveling with the baby to my mom's house back in Michigan. I am here now, but time hasnt really allowed me to post anything. I am not sure if I am staying here for Christmas yet, probably, but Drew called yesterday and they are sending home 25 Rangers the day before Christmas, and they wont find out who it is until 20 minutes before the chopper leaves. So he wont be able to contact me to let me know if he gets to go or not. He said there are only 50 Rangers there right now, so he MAY be able to, but who knows. Emma is doing fine. She ended up bonding with Drew, but she doesnt know anything about him leaving! :)
I have to get going, but I will post a message hopefully later today. Thankx for asking Tam.
I hope everything is ok with Newgirl and Chelsea!!
~Hannah~

Hannah, He will be home just as he did on Thanksgiving. That will be your and Emma's Christmas present from Santa ;-)

Are you feeling the Christmas Spirit? I just love the Christmas music and the spirit. Did not care much about gift, present and pressure of must buy gifts. If love comes from the heart, it needs no present to back it up. Unless it is for the needy.

I will shut-up and wish you and your family warm and wonderful times of gathering.

Sincerely,
Tam

Hey wow, I come back from vacation to see some more incoherent responses from tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum. your idea of arguing is making up stories about the opposition because you can't actually make valid arguments. I know, it must be really hard when you don't have a brain. I suggest you go on Jerry Springer where you will find lots of people just like you.

Happy new year! Ha ha.

I was hoping for little more intelligent discussion on this message board and just only saw your post. I am very disappointed.

I did not hear from you for the whole month and I thought you got hit by a car while begging for money but you are now back :-(

You are lying and you know it. When was the last time you are on vacation?

Go away Jester.

Tam

PS By the way, I am so sorry the Jerry S did not invite you on the last show - hopeless people you thought they graduated from BIG school. Hahahaha LOY

Tam, I am sorry. You are the least intelligent person I have ever met, but I am going to be nice to you.

Do you even understand English? You have no concept of what I'm saying at all.

I am actually too nice to tell you how you really come across to other people. Take care.

ps: I was last came back from vacation on New Year's Eve. I went to a good school and I am an honest person. This is true. I know it and God knows it and does not matter what you say.

I know I am NOT a liar and I am NOT jealous of other people. Maybe if you were these things you could feel good about yourself without trying to hurl false accusations at other people.

Jester,

You do show sign of a human being. Glad to see that.

Just curious, who would come back from vacation on New Year�s Eve? And who would have enough energy to go online after vacation at 7 AM EST on New Year day, within minutes of getting back from vacation to post a nasty post on the internet message board to draw attention to her/him?

But since you raise a white flag I will let it goes.

Let's put our energy on helping the Tsunami victims, shall we?

I posted at 04:55 PM not 7 AM EST - look again, it is there, clear as the sun. Why you keep trying to cast doubt on people who just disagree with you I have no idea.

I returned with my family. Happy now?!

Everybody wants to help the Tsunami vicitms, whether they agree with you or not.

Even at 4:55 PM on New Year day is NOT normal.

I still believe you are using several sreennames on this board, such as Non-simpleton who posted negative post at 2:17 AM on the day after Thanksgiving.

So you both must be the same person with no life and no family.

Normal people would not do what your guys did.

Glad to see that you will help the Tsunami victims even you disagree with everyone on this board. But talk is cheap, have not seen any action from your end just yet. What are you waiting for?

Oh, I am always happy, you forgot that I am a positive contributor and you are the negative contributor. Hahahahaha

Jester,

I was eating my lunch and realize that you made a statement that I complete ignore and did not bother to reply. And for that I am sorry.

You wrote, "Tam, I am sorry. You are the least intelligent person I have ever met, but I am going to be nice to you."

Just within a short paragraph with only 2 sentences and you made 2 lies.

First lie, have you met yourself just yet?

Second, nice is not part of your behavior and no one expected from you. Since I met you in the board you have not been nice to anyone. And you promised to be nice to me. If this is your nicest side then you are in serious trouble. Just drop every thing and go see a doctor. I trust that Medicaid do cover metal health.

I am so impressed

Or should I say..disgusted with both of you.
Tam I half expected you to be the mature one. Both of you are acting like children. Jester and Tam, do you realize there are people in our country who are hurting? People are dying, family members are hurting one another, and you two have nothing better to do then sit here and think of yourselves and argue. Why dont we pull together? Better yet, why dont you two think of other people who could use a little help.

Hannah,

I am little disappointed in you.

Who said that I am not helping? Who said that you only can do one thing at a time?

Just for your info, I have donated money to the Red Cross plus organize a fund to organize a praying service for those victims, we will ask several monks to perform this big memorial service for the unfortunate victims. It might not be much but that is the best I can do.

Tam...
How exactly are you disappointed in me?

I wasnt referring to the tsunami victims, while I admitt that was very good of you do help them out the best you can. I was referring to the people here in America. What do you do for the mother who lost her husband and has to raise her children alone? Or the husband who lost both legs and will never be able to walk his daughter down the aisle? How about the husband who lost his arms and can never hold his wife again?
Thats who I was talking about Tam.

Wow!

As I always believed in multi tasking and will always jump in to help when I decided that my help was needed and it was proper.

I am not mother Theresa and some one try to be God to help each and every unfortunate person in this world. And honestly sometime the victim put themselves in the situation so who am I trying to change that? We are ultimately responsible for our own action and should not expect others to help.

On top of every thing, I am responsible for my own happiness so is everyone else. So what I do to enhance my happiness is my own business not your, Hannah. Should I now ask what have you done lately that you are so proud of?

my husband was injured in battle, he is paralyzed from the waist down.
I have done nothing great, I wasnt trying to brag on myself.

And since your so interested..he doesnt even recognize Emma or myself. He doesnt even know who he is.

Tam, please understand I was not trying to critisize you, although it did come out that way. I was trying to show you that there are people all around the world dying and hurting, and the last thing I want to hear or see is two people fighting.

I am sorry about your husband injury. Whatever I can do to help send me a direct email via my address (chinhtamnguyen@yahoo.com).

And I believe he needs you and Emma now more than ever so please spend more time with him leave the world problem to the rest of us.

And please tell your husband we thank him for his valuable service.

Tam,
Thank you for your support, once again! Seems like whenever I need encouragment you are there to give me that boost! Thank you very much.

Drew is very aware of the things going on around him, he hasnt suffered any mental problems, he just doesnt remember anything. He is scared, he doesnt know who anyone is, and you can tell he just isnt sure of us. He doesnt trust anyone, and I can understand that. It has to be scary to be sorrounded by people who say they love you, and you have no idea who they are. he cant sleep at night, and he gets frustrated when I tell him something and he cant remember. For example, I was showing him wedding pictures. He said yeah, thats me...I just wish I could remember!! So Tam, the only thing that can be done right now is a lot of praying, for all of us! Its wearing on everybody's nerves, and having a husband who doesnt know you is really tough.
Thank you Tam.

Where has Jester gone too I wonder?

The real question is,

"Is the world better off without Jester?"

And no one able to find a POSITIVE contribution from Jester.

Mor importantly how is Drew? Emma probably is very big huh?

Tam...
Yes I think the world is better off without Jester!ha. We dont need his negative comments here, I was just wondering since he didnt cut you or I down..he must be on vacation! :)

Drew is making an excellent recovery, thanx for asking. Still no memory, but he believes everything I tell him. He knows we are married, he knows Emma is our baby, he just doesnt remember anything before hte hospital. He told me yesterday it was like falling in love with someone he was already married to, and loving a child that has been his for 6 months. He obviously is in a wheelchair, but that doesnt slow him down. he will lay on the ground and play with emma, and he is very helpful in taking care of her. He can do everything he could do before the injury, minus walking! Which is amazing because it was only a month ago the doctor told me he wouldnt make it! F.Y.I....Drew was being dropped out of the heli. into a battle zone, and was shot in the back, and it just happened to be his spinal cord. When he fell he hit his head hence the memory loss. But we are thankful he is at least living, and that he can still use his arms. So he is virtually back to normal. He absolutly adores Emma and every little thing she does. I was in the kitchen making breakfast the other day, and hd left Drew and the baby in bed, when I heard Emma crack up laughing. I went in to see what was going on, and Drew was poking her potbelly. It is really something to see them play together and snuggle.
Emma IS huge Tam. actully, she is a pork chop. She is 6 months old, and she weighs 33 lbs. She is looking more and more like Drew each day, not in referance to the weight.:)
Tam how is your daughter? Does she live with you? How is the situation? If you dont want to discuss it thats fine, but please feel free to discuss her with me! What is her name???

Glad that Drew is back to normal (well, normal as expected after that major injury) and I sincerely hope with the love he have for your and Emma, his memory will be back in no time.

Love to talk little more personal than I have been but feel very uncomfortable to discuss personal matter in the message board like this send me an email to chinhtamnguyen@yahoo.com. Could not tell you her name but she is 3 years and 5 months old and she is the joy of my life, I would do anything for her including give-up my life.

Got to go love to chat more later.

Tam...
I understand you need to keep personal info off this site. Thats fine by me. But I am not into emailing people I dont know personally, all I can think of is the story with the girl who went and killed that mother and stole her baby! Dont misunderstand me....I dont think you would do that...but I dont know you either. And it all starts innocent enough. I would rather post things on this site...such as the situation with drew then email someone, not just you. So again..I understand that you dont want to disclose any information...trust me I do...but please dont be offended if you dont get an email from me.
thank you tam!

Hi guys, I know I haven't posted in a few months. I was away then really busy.
Hannah I'm so sorry to hear about Drew, I was almost crying reading about it. I kept thinking about how selfish I am sometimes when so many other people are hurting so bad. Its amazing how much life can change in such a short amount of time. I will be praying for you and Drew and Emma. Again I'm so sorry, I can't imagine what you must be going through. But keep hoping, it will get better.

And for everyone lets talk about Paul Hamm, whats he been up to lately? I saw 20/20 (I think it was 20/20) where him and Morgan were helping 2 families lose weight.
That would be a serious motivater! It would be embarassing too. When I meet Paul (and yes I'm determined to do so at some time:)) I want to look amazing! Hopefully he won't be married by then either!:)
So anyway I gotta go, see you later!!
-Chelsea-

P.S. I didn't tell you guys this but Chelsea isn't really my name, well its my middle name(one of them), and I want to start using my first name. I've been called Chelsea forever but I like change so I'm going to the name I should've been called by in the first place, and I want you guys to call me that too. Its Natily, Natily Chelsea Anne Johnson. I know you guys must think I'm kind of crazy, I mean now everyone has to call me by a different name. But I like Natily now, I used to hate it hence the name confusion! So anyway I wanted to tell you that.
-Natily-
(boy thats gonna take some getting used to!)

Natily,
What a pretty name! That was my choice for a name when Emma was born.
Thank you for your support! I showed Drew yours and Tam's post and he wanted me to thank each of you. He said he is glad he could serve his country in any way possible, and proud. He said he would do it all over again in a hearbeat, even though he lost his memory and the use of his legs. I showed him pictures of the accident. His fellow Rangers have to document everything they do, and as grotesque as it is, they took pictures of the accident. Of course the family members and the General were the only ones who can see them. Anywho..he saw the pics and couldnt believe it is him. I just cant imagine how he must be feeling each day to wake up and not really know who you are.
Natily...thank you again. I'll be honest and say that it is extremly hard. Its tough. Its tough on everybody, not just me. We could really use your prayers, and thanx again.

Natily Chelsea Anne Johnson :-) Wow it is a long one and it is a cute name. I like Nality.

And Nality, base on Paul track record and things I read about Paul, look is not as much important as heart and soul. Don't get me wrong, he would not date a 4 feet or 6 feet girl or 400 lbs but from your post you are doing just fine. Best of luck and what are you waiting for. Life is too short and you or him may not be here tomorrow so you go girl.

Tam

Hannah,

I do understand your reason but not able to comprehended the logic behind your reason. And it hurt like hell not to be trusted.

Best of luck to you and Drew as always.

Tam

Tam...
I wasnt saying that I personally didnt trust you. I am sorry that I offended you. What I was saying is that sometimes you just need to be cautious. Look at it from my point of view Tam...I have a husband in a wheelchair, a 6 month of daughter, and another one on the way ( I found out this morning)...should something happen Drew could do nothing. I have a fmaily to protect, and sometimes there is more to protecting them than just trusting people. You can never be too cautious...and when it comes to my daughter, my husband, and the new baby I will nver air on the side of liberality. I will always be conservative, even if it goes against what I would like to do. I would love to email you Tam, really I would...and it isnt you...but I am sure you understand what I am saying. Think about your daughter Tam. If you were in my situation...I am sure you would do the same thing. Again...i am sorry I offended you, and that it has to be this way.

Hannah,

We are who we are. Maybe I have set my expectation too high, maybe I don't know life as I should ... and maybe I am not as hurt as I thought I was.

Take care,
Tam C Nguyen

Tam...
I am not sure what you were implying by that last post. I am really seriously suprised you are taking this so personally. I told you that it wasnt you I was trying to be cautious of...its everybody. Maybe you just cant understand, you obviously dont know what it is like to be in my situation. You obviously dont know what it is like to be constantly looking over your shoulder. You obviously dont know how hard it is to look out for three people by yourself, and being a woman it is even harder. I hesitate to say it, but have you ever had to sacrifice for someone you loved? How about giving up all of your social time, telling your friends you cant do this or you cant do that, how about having to live on money from the stinkin Army because you cant leave your husband alone with the baby? Tell me Tam....what would you do??

Hey Tam, I know that Paul isn't really concerned about looks, thats one of the things that I think is kind of great about him. But for me, personally, I want to look my best when I meet anyone, especially if they look great! I guess I might be a little too concerned about how I look. And I know thats not really good because I'm also a perfectionist and thats the mix that leads to eating disorders most of the times. But I'm not like that at all. And I do think I'm not that bad looking, but I would be so embarrassed to meet some one like Paul Hamm if I was fat. I would be embarrased to just look at myself if I was fat. Thats a part of me that will never change no matter how important looks are to other people.

-Hannah I'm praying for you and your family all the time. Hang in their, things will get better.

-And Tam don't take Hannah's trust related comments personally. I'm not a very trusting person either, but now a days I think thats a good thing, and an attitude you'll run into a lot, so get used to it! Especially if the situation involves people you communicate with over the internet. Some people even act offended and etc. to get people to trust them, then, well you know. I'm not saying thats what you're doing or anything but it happens. So thats why Hannah (and I) don't really trust people.
Anyway I'll talk to you guys later.:)

-Natily CAJ-

Hannah,

You don't know me that well personally that why you think that your sacrifice is bigger than mine, and try your best to trust me on this one I know what your sacrifice is and I know mine. And base on your recent posts you will never get to know mine not that you really care. That is enough said about this subject.

Natily, Take it from the one that had lost a life time opportunity. Life is short, if you just wait for that perfect second, as soon as you blink your eyes, it might be gone. So do it now before it too late. Let just say, if I get to go it over again, I would pick a different path of my life. And it is too late. My happiness is no longer important actually my life is meaningless ... My daughter is now the center of my life.

Have a great life everyone. I am signing off.

Tam

Tam...
I dont think my sacrifice is bigger than yours. I dont know anything about you, other then you expect people to trust you without even knowing you. Thats a great quality that you can be so trusting, but for me...I am not willing to take a chance. I really had hoped you could see things from my point of view, apparently not. I am sorry it came to this, it really is a shame. I have enjoyed talking with you, reading your posts, sticking up for you, having you stick up for me. Its been fun, but for me too, my time is required elsewhere. I have things to take care of that need more time, more energy, and more love. Please understand tam...it was nothing personal, and I wasnt saying my life is sooooo hard. I love my life, I love my family with all of my heart and I would do anything over or different. Sure I wish Drew could walk...but that doesnt change a thing about how I feel for him, or how he feels for me.
Natily....good luck with whatever you chose to do with your life. You are young and have alot of oppurtunities ahead of you. Take every chance you get and make the most of life. Dont ever settle...for anything! Not for a boyfriend, job, nothing! Dont ever ever ever settle. Get the best out of life.Good luck!
~Hannah~

one more thing Tam...
You will NEVER know what my sacrafice is. Dont even try to understand it. You have, and never will walk in my shoes, and until you do dont even think of blaming me for not trusting you.

~Hannah~
p.s.
You gave me one more reason to not trust you.

Well I guess this is it. Its been fun discussing stuff with you guys. I'll pray for you both. Thanks for the advice, I promise I won't settle or pass up any opportunities.
Thanks so much for everything you guys! And even though you're not as young as me and you've made a lot of your life decisions already, keep fighting for whatever you love or hope for. Life is wasted if you don't stand up for what you believe in. Keep your dreams alive.
I might not talk to you guys again so if I don't keep an eye out for me, I'm going to be famous someday, and you'll know me when you see me!
Talking to you guys has gotten me through some tough things in my life, thanks for all your words of advice, support, and encouragement.

-Natily CAJ-

Oh and one last thing: Paul Hamm is the greatest!!!!!:):)

This past August, Paul Hamm showed us an incredible and inspiring thing: never to give up. It is totally unfair to say all these things about him, when you don't even know all the facts. Not once in this article was it brought up about the Korean's fourth hold on parallel bars. The CAS decided in Paul's favor, also, so it proves that he is the true Olympic Champion, and no one can ever take that away from him. I think he has enough to focus on right now; he doesn't need people who don't have all their facts strait writing these things about him.

Comparing George Bush to Paul Hamm is completly inappropriate. Paul Hamm did what he had to in order to become Olympic Champion. He did no wrong; it was the judges' fault, so why should Paul have to clean up the judges' mess? It seems as if there were many people who had choices to make, many of which made the wrong ones. However, I think Paul made the right choice by fighting for his medal and for what he believes in. Can anyone out there honestly say that they would give their Olympic GOLD medal back, when they did nothing wrong? After they made a miraculous comeback from a fall that knocked them into 12th place with only 2 rotations left? I can guarantee that NOT many people out there would give the medal back.

Paul Hamm will always be a hero in my heart.

J,
Well spoken!! I agree with you 110% about Paul. However, one thing caught my attention.
"Comparing George Bush to Paul Hamm is completly inappropriate. " How?
I agree, it is inapprpopriate, but you followed that statement up by telling us how Paul DESERVED his medal, and fought for what he believed in, and how he did no wrong. From what I can tell...thats how I view Bush. But before I say too much....I had better make sure I am not preaching to the choir. Let me know what you think on that, and what oyu meant by that too.
Good post though J.
~Hannah~

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Paul,

By all means, if you did not score higher than Yang Tae-young, give him his
gold medal back!!!!!!!! Don't hide behind a judging error and a good
lawyer. It's completely dishonorable!!!!!! And distasteful. IT IS NOT
THE AMERICAN WAY!!!!! We want to be known as honorable people in the US.
Doesn't everyone agree???!!!! Think objectively even though he is cute!!!

Ki

Paul,

By all means, if you did not score higher than Yang Tae-young, give him his
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lawyer. It's completely dishonorable!!!!!! And distasteful. IT IS NOT
THE AMERICAN WAY!!!!! We want to be known as honorable people in the US.
Doesn't everyone agree???!!!! Think objectively even though he is cute!!!

Ki

Hope you come back soon!!

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