good riddance

I don't know who that guy is, but I agree with him.

Why is it that most rap producers don't know music theory? Some of these guys think learning music theory will actually HOLD THEM BACK.

It's confusing. On one hand I love rap, but on the other hand I think it's a bullshit form of music because the people who make it don't know how it works.

My favorite artist just started learning music theory two years ago (dr. dre). That's bullshit.

huh? you make no sense.

either

Witness the most full-circle fall in the history of indie hip hop. What a disgrace this genius has become.

Robert: He learned a little bit of music theory and became disenchanted with hip-hop. How does that make him a disgrace?

This is a man who used to have an understanding of improvised, chunk-by-chunk, sampled hip hop beauty on its own terms. I think it's pretty disgraceful that he's regressed into a ethnocentric, not to mention inconsistent, mess. Ethnocentric because suddenly the ability to read music and a knowledge of prescribed music theory are now not merely ways of understanding music but are the only way to understand music. That he is echoing a particularly racist criticism previously leveled at jazz musicians doesn't go unnoticed. Furthermore he is inconsistent. There is no such thing a traditional songwriting framework and even if there were, Elvis, Nirvana, Miles Davis(!) and My Bloody Valentine wouldn't comprise a cladogram for such a concept. And, by the way Rich, Elvis never learned to read music!

Spot on, Robert. Not much for me to add.

Man I don't know how to take any of this - Rich has ALWAYS been...inconsistent when it comes to...well everything. I still dig his music but frankly in about a year or two he'll change his tune.

Yo, seriously: FUCK Buck 65. What the fuck does he know about hip hop anyway? Listening to his sh1t, you can only call it hip hop in the most charitable sense of the term. This jackass has always seemed to have a chip on his shoulder about this music so I don't why he doesn't just fuck off and make his lo-fi quasi spoken word records elsewhere and leave it alone.

Real b-boys and fans of this culture aren't even f-cking with him anyway, he's checked for by internet nerds, college students and indie music hipsters who don't even really like hip hop.

And what do you need to know about music theory to create great music that moves people anyway? Dr. Dre just started learning music theory two years ago, so what? He's made some of the greatest pop music of all time and most of it was not in the last two years. If this dude had half a clue about the history of hip hop (which I'm sure he actually does based on stuff I've read about him in the past), he'd know that hip hop was created by pioneers out of love of all music from country, pop and rock to funk, soul, disco and techno.

Buck 65 just proved that he's never understood or respected this music. But the most embarrassing thing though is probably that I allowed him to set me off like this.

he's only forgiven because he's a fucking genius on the decks. dude needs to quit hanging out with the pseudointellectual anticon twits though.

i KNEW he would say this one day. that faux-blues record was the faux-est thing i ever heard. it's all pose and no soul.

He fell out with the anticon "twits" a long time ago.

the day that intellectual snobbery became part of anyones criteria for acceptable hip hop should be rued forever.

reading music can increase a musicians ability to express certain ideas, but the only thing any musician really needs is a good ear and talent. besides, with the proliferation of good sequencing and recording equipment, theres very little that can't be accomplished without knowing music theory if you have real ability.

i was raised learning to play written music for years, and i have found it completely useless in expressing myself through my own compositions.

nirvana used music theory? fuck buck 65.

robert couldn't be more correct. buck's on some rockist auteurist bullshit here.

Jimi Hendrix, the greatest guitarist in the history of rock, couldn't read music either. When he met with Buck's hero Miles Davis, Miles gave him some music he had written, and Jimi had to admit he couldn't read it.

One of the many genius aspects of hip-hop music is that it's folk music that can be made without knowledge of music theory or even instruments!

I've never felt Buck 65 at all, but this is a new level of douchebaggery.

Hip hop is the bastard child of all the black music that came before it; blues in essence, having rock’s energy, and jazz’s coolness, etc. More importantly, it was created in a generation when music theory was no longer a significant part of public education. What made it special, and has hurt it simultaneously, has been it’s reliance upon other music to be it’s backbone. However, in the end, it becomes it’s own creation. It’s hip hop, a unique music, which like all other music, stands on the shoulders of giants.

Not implementing proper theory in creating hip hop music does not mean that you don’t tune samples to be in the key of each other, or that you don’t create progressions, changes, hooks, etc...The beauty of the music is that many of the artists used theory without knowing theory (dj premier with buckshot lefonque, kanye, dre, timbaland, the list is endless).

Theory vs. Play-By-Ear, I liken it to someone who is spiritual having a conversation about God with someone who is religious. The religious person is going to use definitive terms, while the spiritual person might just reference a feeling. The end result is what’s important. Just because you can read music, create chord progressions, etc doesn’t automatically make you a superior artist. It can always help, but it’s not a requirement.

I just take his comments as being coded for race, and also part of a larger phenomenon of artists and critics that are rewriting the history of yet another black music.

everyone needs to get their hands on the short film entitled "the cry of jazz." it's from 1959 and it speaks directly to everything being said in this thread- basically, it's the whole "is hip hop dead and did we 'let' white people kill it"" discourse, but it's about jazz and it was filmed 45 years ago. seriously, i highly recommend you all watch it.

why? why does everything anyone white says have to be somehow found racial? ...

anyway... i think buck is a little off track- i agree that a person wouldnt HAVE to be able to read music to drop a hot track... and i dont know where he is getting off saying he is better than them because he can. anyway... its not a race issue at all...

peace-

> why? why does everything anyone white says [Ian note: about blacks/black-related issues, I'm assuming?] have to be somehow found racial? ...

Because 98 times out of a 100, it is....

And Miles Davis used "traditional songwriting"? Davis is a legend now precisely because he was breaking the rules of songwriting. J-sus, what an ass!

But Jay is right: Robert said it best though Todd and Rawj and a couiple others made some good points too.

rap music is not about music theory. it's inception was a rebellion against white pop culture.

that aint true. ^^

i like the religious vs spiritual person analogy that was used above--it captures the point very well.

what buck 65 said is pretty racist. he said "The people behind hip hop don’t know anything about music theory or have any appreciation for other kinds of music outside hip hop." Ask yourself who the people behind hip hop are and its pretty tough to come to any other conclusion. Besides, the part about not appreciating other types of music is self contraditory, since if you are making hip hop most likely you are sampling from other genres to create beats, and if you're clueless in that regard you won't go far.

the whole argument that white people eventually "steal" black music doesn't make sense to me. the first black american music was the result of slaves being exposed to white hymns. so at its root, black music in america is inextricable from whites. plus, 90% of the instruments used in black american music are of european origin. white musicians are frequently sampled in hip hop. and your mpc was made in japan. i'm not trying to oversimplify a complex issue, i'm just saying...

Music Theory is not a prerequisite to music. That's idiotic. And musicality isn't music theory. It's everything else. It's everything that isn't on the page. Buck65's claiming there's no music in hiphop simply because the people who make hiphop don't use a notation. Perhaps that's because Buck65 never had a firm grasp of musicality in the first place. That's hilarious. The music theory should be developed to understand how and why the music functions, so that logical extensions can be made and the music grows. A smarter individual, or, perhaps, an individual less occluded by prejudice thinly coded by snobbery, would see the lack of music theory in such a rich form of music as an opportunity rather than a shortcoming.

Hiphop is a new empirical phenomenon, it's a music which exists and has existed for some time now, and the saavy theorist should see it as an opportunity to refine our understanding of music in general. Just as the saavy theoretical physicist sees new experimental phenomena as an opportunity.

In closing, Buck65 doesn't hate hiphop, hiphop hates Buck65.

ummmmmm, JOE:

the whole argument that white people eventually "steal" black music doesn't make sense to me. the first black american music was the result of slaves being exposed to white hymns. so at its root, black music in america is inextricable from whites.

remember what you learned in basic history??? WHITE PEOPLE STOLE BLACK PEOPLE AND DUMPED THEM IN AMERICA. black slaves weren't "exposed" to "white hymns." they were FORCED TO LISTEN TO THEM. there is a big difference.

right. but that doesn't change the truth of what i said, regardless of the injustice of forcing slaves to listen to hymns. i'm just saying that if you go back to the first real distinctly american music that blacks made, it was a direct result of mixing african musical traditions with new exposure to protestant hymns. the mixing of european and african musical traditions is what makes american music. so no matter how hard people try to say "this music is just black, this music is just white," to some degree they're really part of the same big picture. to me thats reassuring for many reasons. probably not the least of which is because i'm white and i don't think i'm stealing anyones music or culture. i only brought that fact up because an earlier post mentioned that whites are killing hip hop, which i don't think is true. i didn't mean to turn this into a race debate.

Sage Francis is fresh.

A few notes...

1. Baiting. Buck 65 is baiting. But he did bring up some good points.

2. Theory. ALL music has theory, either implicit, stated, or concerted. Hip Hop makes concerted theory much less important through repetition. But what hip hop lacks in song structure, it makes up for with rhythmic sophistication and tonal freedom. Instead of putting 100% into 100%, hip hop producers often put 100% into 5%. Not coincidentally, the basis of hip hop is a drum break, which usually represents the most exciting 5% of a classic funk, rock, or soul song. No relation to the Five Percenters.

3. Race. As far as the racial make-up of hip hop, let me pleeeaaaasssse straighten it out like Pete Rock and CL (those two backstabbers). Black music culture gave rise to hip hop because of a few things: sophisticated rhythmic interplay, relentless innovation, and the amalgamation of cruss cultural fodder. These approaches were often UNIQUE to and exemplified Black American music culture. White Americans never had that level of rhythmic sophistication before black people were brought over here. White Americans never had that level of innovation. It is true that Black people INCORPORATED and AMALAGAMATED countless elements of white culture, but these were merely ingredients. It was the Black APPROACH to the music that made all the difference and inspired, influenced, and lead to nearly every single goldarn aspect of contemporary American popular music. And this barely covers the innovations and contributions jazz musicians like Mingus, Duke, Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman, Miles, AEOC, and others, who went way beyond mere rhythms and conventional structures.

4. Instruments. If you really want to get technical on the instrument thing: drums and guitars are indigenous to Africa. Drums and bass guitar are the unquestioned foundation of, not only hip hop, but all electronic music. But this is kind of a moot point because we are talking cross-culture here. That said, reggae was perhaps the biggest production antecedent of hip hop. In traditional rock and blues music, the vocals and the guitar dictated what other instruments would play. Usually a chorus would dictate the vocals would dictate the guitar melody. Funk music and reggae brought the drums and bass into lead performance and songwriting roles. Nowadays, a hip hop song will just as often be dictated by a drum pattern or a bassline, as it will a flute melody or a vocal chorus. This shows that hip hop combines the best of both traditional and contemporary songwriting techniques.

5. Soul. I challenge someone to notate the "soulfulness" of a song, much less explain it in words.

Buck 65 is great and original,I agree with him.A lot of hip hop artists are just shite now,the real hip hop lies with other acts who will take it forward a bit and leave the mainstream "blingin'" bullshit behind.A fresh and new artists isn't a disgrace because they have a valid and strong opinion - that's what makes them fresh and new.Hip hop and rap is stale at the moment.And it needs a kick up the ass.

I never even heard of this cracker til now,(for good reason) but I gotta say :) This dudes stupid. Three is the magic number for a reason. One example is convention. Preconventional, conventional, postconventional. After realizing his ameteurish attempts at mimmicking real hiphop through his plaid shirt lens weren't getting anywhere according to convention, he disses the format??! Ignorance! Betrayal! Ingratitude! Hiphop never tried to impress you sucka, it just tried to free you. Go study wig music dork, and take your I, IV, V chords and shove em up your conventional poopy hole.
On the real though, the religion vs. spiritual duality is truly applicable but I don't even think this guy has enough knowledge to handle such an enlightened view. I should shut up actually, I've never heard a single thing he's made, but I got linked to this page by an almost-as-ignorant black guy who's posting on the temple of hiphop forum, talking about how white people are killing it. Ignorance is killing it, but knowlege is so much more alive.

hey, OF COURSE white people are responsible for the blues, r&b, funk, jazz and hip hop! because white people dragged africans over to america agianst their will and that's where blacks were exposed to european hymns. dude, are you kidding me?

ps
i never heard of this buck 65 eeeeeediot-bwoy either, but once i saw his was a canadian turntablist whiteboy it all made sense.

For more insight into this check

http://www.exclaim.ca/index.asp?layid=227&csid1=2268

Fact is buck has the skills to out hip-hop any of the acts on the hip-hop charts today and a lot of the underground.

He is a hell of an artist. He's smart, creative and thoughtful.

People say a lot of things. I find the stuff Buck says in interviews that are in context, and where he is free to express himself, usually makes sense and is interesting.

Anyone who said the above quotes are racist is either wrong, or not operating on the grounds of reason, logic, like most of us do (or both).

Oh, and, any publicity is good publicity. So I think there'll probly be some new buck fans out there.

hey "beelove"

"but once i saw his was a canadian turntablist whiteboy it all made sense."

Do you realize that by adding this (above) pathetic and ignorant "ps" you lost all credibility and thus undercut any possible points you might have made? This was a very stupid thing to say especially considering that the thread had started towards issues of racism. Clearly you have never heard any of Buck's stuff, nor have you read the article that these quotes have been taken from. All of you people on hear seem so eager to say something intelligent (congratulations of you use of impressive words), or in "beelove's" case something cool, that you have only accounted for the content of the quotes, and NOT the context. Shame on you.
From Buck:
http://www.exclaim.ca/index.asp?layid=227&csid1=2268
You seem like intelligent people. Think harder and consider further.
now here's MY ps:
1) a lot of rap music DOES suck. Not because music theory, but Buck was just using that to prove a point. A lot of it just isnt music no matter how you look at it.
2) considering the negative attitude that most people have towards white rappers (an attitude that "beelove" so beautifully demonstrated) it is not surprising that buck65 is frustrated by this author's attempt to classify him as such. Read the article, note the title, and ask yourself if the author knew anything about hip hop or if they had an agenda.

"god": Way ahead of you, we already posted that link (see above).

Fact is buck has the skills to out hip-hop any of the acts on the hip-hop charts today and a lot of the underground.

Actually that's not a fact, it's an opinion.. Personally I'd rather listen to Northern State, J Kwon or Fannypack than Buck 65. But that's just my opinion.

Anyone who said the above quotes are racist is either wrong, or not operating on the grounds of reason, logic, like most of us do (or both).

Would you care to back that up, by actually responding to the detailed analysis given here in support of that racism charge? Or is every word you speak the truth merely because you say it is? I guess that would make sense, since you are God and all..

jesus christ, the worst thing about blogging is people constantly read whatever they want into other peoples posts and use it against them. beelove, i never said whites were responsible for hip hop, or any other black music. you make it sound like i advocate slavery or something. i'm just saying over the last 400 years black and white musical traditions just might by some freak chance have influenced each other. i fully admit that blacks have been the most avid innovators at combining the traditions in american music. although dvorak did base an entire symphony on spirituals, and some people out there might actually care about classical music.

you can't completely discount whitey. to the guy who mentioned all those jazz artists as evidence of the black APPROACH making all the difference, in a way you support my point. mingus was a classically trained musician and he strived to incorporate elements of impressionism, a european movement, into jazz. ornette coleman put one of jackson pollocks (cracker) paintings in one of his album covers to give a visual representation of his music. and incidentally max roach hated ornette colemans work.

if i have any final argument its that music should unite people through all the historical ways it ties us together, not be bastardized and used to bludgeon people apart, and thats why fuck what buck 65 said.

word. thanks for resopnding joe. Absolutely... there was cross fertilopolinization (how's that for an even BIGGER big word). Duke, in particular, I think exemplified this "marriage" of traditions. You are absolutely right that sophisticated jazz musicians were in tune with theory and European traditions. That said, the influence and audience of jazz music diminished considerably as the music became less "European" and more pro-black and experimental. The larger influence on modern popular music were the Blues, gospel, doo wop, and soul artists who were much much less influenced by the traditions of Europe. Ironically, the more grassroots, the less theory based, and the more "Black" the music became... the more popular it got. Hmm... as KRS might say "Why is that?"

But the outcome is still the same: modern griot music given the Jamaican production treatment. Like it or not: that's the new standard. C'mon y'all... it's OK to give Black people all the credit. Or most of it. If you missed the 5% of white artists like Steve Miller, Eric Burdon, Frank Zappa, Led Zeppelin, Velvet Underground, Jim Morrison, Bob James, the Sex Pistols, Iggy and the Stooges, the Clash, etc, who also helped shape modern music... it's OK. They already got their credit and album sales ten times over. They already got their Stairway To Heaven and went to the Darkside of the Moon. They made great music and people enjoyed it. But music history moves on and I don't think the influence of these artists is growing. Meanwhile, the influence of Black artists continues to grow, somehow defying significant demographic changes, I might add. You don't have to listen to it, but at the very least acknowledge the contributions.

The problem here is that some people have this defensive cultural reflex mechanism that makes them want to discredit Black artists (especially those on the radio) in spite of the fact that these same artists are playing an integral role in reshaping music culture (so that your kids will have a stronger and broader foundation with which to work). Just Blaze, Kanye, 9th Wonder, Nottz, Madlib, etc, etc... the lyrics might not be your cup o' tea... but those beats are 2 legit to quit (and, news flash: that's why they also happen to be so damn popular). I guess you always gotta remind those defensive white folks that music culture doesn't have to be a political rally. If your prerequisite for enjoying music is an uptight, resentful, angry vibe... maybe that is because you are uptight, resentful and angry. And I'm not pointing any fingers. I big up everyone on this board who has taken the time to share their feelings and opinions.

Oh I forgot the Beach Boys. My first concert. Straight Socal white boy doo wop madness. Even the Beatles were shook.

Jay Smooth:
"Actually that's not a fact, it's an opinion.. Personally I'd rather listen to Northern State, J Kwon or Fannypack than Buck 65. But that's just my opinion." -jay smooth

Yes, me saying buck could out hip-hop most of those others is an opinion, but it's most likely true. To clarify, I didn't mean I like to listen to him best. I was thinking, better dj, better carry a show, greater hiphop knowledge, better delivery, better lyricist...

"Would you care to back that up, by actually responding to the detailed analysis given here in support of that racism charge?" -jay smooth

In case there's any confusion, I was defending the Buck quotes above from being called racist. Actually there hasn't been any detailed analysis given in support of the racism charge. In fact, the only person who called the statements racist was joe when he said,

"what buck 65 said is pretty racist. he said "The people behind hip hop don’t know anything about music theory or have any appreciation for other kinds of music outside hip hop." Ask yourself who the people behind hip hop are and its pretty tough to come to any other conclusion."

I'm not engaged here enough to get a definition of racism and prove the Buck statments aren't racist. Really it's obvious. But for starters: you can talk about a group that's predominantly black without being racist. By Joe's logic, if I said the LA Lakers suck, it would be a racist comment.

"Or is every word you speak the truth merely because you say it is? I guess that would make sense, since you are God and all.." -jay smooth

*laughs*
just some letters typed in a name field.
Thanks for your reply. Peace

^^ The lakers are not a culture or a population. The "people behind hip hop" just might be.

Eric, I appreciate your comments. For my part, I did not intend to launch a political knee jerk defense of whiteness. I am just very interested in how musical traditions manifest themselves today. What I have learned leads me to believe that in america, saying black music has gained nothing from white music or white music has gained nothing from black music are equally false statements.

My whole argument started against the post that said "are white people killing hip hop and did we let them." Having spent the last several years absorbing and supporting as much hip hop as possible, and giving up my saturdays for the last several months to work for free at a hip hop record store, I take slight offense to that. I feel at no time have I disrespected or discredited the accomplishments of black musicians. Buck 65s comments are another story. I'm glad to see he has apologized, and I think anyone here who defended the statements that he apologized so profusely for is completely ignorant.

It's disappointing to find out there are still people (god, fish) who think the only "real" hip-hop is in the underground. Do you even listen to mainstream rap radio? I don't hear much blingin', I hear a lot of crunk, but maybe that's because I'm in the south. That shit is "real" hip-hop.

Anyway, I find the idea that Buck65 could "out hip-hop" anyone truly laughable. It's not what or how many records he has or how fast he can scratch. I first heard Sebutones like five years ago, and he had no soul and no flow then, and I imagine it's even worse now.

I would love to see Buck65 and David Banner in a contest to see who was more hip-hop. Ha ha.

"Anyway, I find the idea that Buck65 could "out hip-hop" anyone truly laughable. It's not what or how many records he has or how fast he can scratch. I first heard Sebutones like five years ago, and he had no soul and no flow then, and I imagine it's even worse now." -Todd

Yeah I do listen to a lot of mainstream rap. I never dissed it in my post(although I could). Just pointed out that Buck's spent a considereable amount of his life learnin and doin hiphop and as a result has a lot of skills and knowledge, probly moreso than most other hiphoppers out there.

He does have flow. Go download "pants on fire" and listen to it a few times with an open mind.
I'll go check some David Banner.

*puts on get crunk shoes*

god:

"Yes, me saying buck could out hip-hop most of those others is an opinion, but it's most likely true.

Umm... do you understand the concept of subjectivity?

To clarify, I didn't mean I like to listen to him best. I was thinking, better dj, better carry a show, greater hiphop knowledge, better delivery, better lyricist..."

Again, I don't see what you're getting at. Do you believe any of that makes your statement less subjective? He has one of the worst deliveries I've ever heard, incidentally (BTJMO).

As for the race issue, the quote you cite was not the only place it was discussed here, check Robert's post:

"I think it's pretty disgraceful that he's regressed into a ethnocentric, not to mention inconsistent, mess. Ethnocentric because suddenly the ability to read music and a knowledge of prescribed music theory are now not merely ways of understanding music but are the only way to understand music. That he is echoing a particularly racist criticism previously leveled at jazz musicians doesn't go unnoticed..."

In other words, your "Lakers suck" comparison is missing the point.. Buck was judging African-American musical traditions as inferior specifically because they do not measure up to the narrow standards of white/European traditions, which he sought to apply as a universal measure of artistic merit.

thanks for the response joe.

yeah, again, there are many musicians who can't read music, yet they can still have a highly developed intuitive understanding of theory. and, ultimately, it is what we hear -- not see -- which makes the difference. Right?

One of the great revolutions of jazz was tonal and harmonic freedom. Probably the biggest example of this was breaking out of rigid key signatures. Knowing how to successfully combine notes from multiple -- and often conflicting -- European harmonic scales was long considered unorthodox. Yet in hip hop it is an inevitable part of rapping over beats. And even beatmakers get in on the action by combining disparate and "theoretically" incompatible sounds. Different cultures have different scales. Hip Hop goes one step further by having either no scales, or combining all scales. You decide.

To be fair, there are many rock artists who have used these techniques (for quite some time now). But only hip hop has made it a basis of the artform, and popularized it to such a degree.

one last thing. i think a lot of people miss the fact that hip hop artists and heads (esp. producers and DJs) are an extremely diverse group of people. hip hop is not just the emcees on the radio. emcees on the radio DO NOT represent the grassroots demographic of hip hop. if you actually got up and close with all the "people behind hip hop", you might be surprised to find that it is a very diverse and inclusive group.

if he's talkin about what,s currently on MTV and BET today, then yes i agree with him, but when you talk about everyone in the game, then I think he's stupid.

or tryin to boost his career with his statement, hopeing to attract the attention of other more famous rappers, so they can mention his name to get him in the spotlight!

pretty crafty if it works!

You know what is pis8ing me off about this whole thread? I am hearing about how "racist" Buck's comments were. I can see where those arguments are comming from. Idon't think that was his intent however. What is pis8ing me off is all the hardcore racsism happening toward white people by you guys. For people who get so upset over from some aledged racist comment you are very racist. Bunch of hypocrites! Listen, blacks gave whites more rhythm... true. Whites gave blacks more melody... true. And who cares who gave who what! Who cares who is doing the music... do you like it? Yes? Then listen to it. Do you like it? No? Turn it off. Is that too hard? Hip Hop ain't stagnet anyways. You just have to dig a bit harder to find freshness. When someone hears music they like... the artistic ones will make it themsleves. No one "stole" any music. If a music reflects something about yourself then your gonna make it? Since when is a music style based on color anyways? It's based on the soul and we all are the same with that! Just like all our blood is red. Stop it with the whites vs black junk! We all live on the same rock that is hurtling through space!

Jayo:

"Yes, me saying buck could out hip-hop most of those others is an opinion, but it's most likely true." -god

"Umm... do you understand the concept of subjectivity?" -Jay Smooth

Yeah, but I also usually assume there's such thing as objective truth. Some of my beliefs I don't hold strongly. I now I can be wrong, so these beliefs are up for challenge. I can be swayed. There's other shit that's still up for debate, but I'm pretty sure that I'm right about. Buck's hiphop knowledge and ability is one of those cases.

"To clarify, I didn't mean I like to listen to him best. I was thinking, better dj, better carry a show, greater hiphop knowledge, better delivery, better lyricist..." -god

"Again, I don't see what you're getting at. Do you believe any of that makes your statement less subjective? He has one of the worst deliveries I've ever heard, incidentally (BTJMO). " -Jay Smooth

What I was getting at was to try to explain what I meant by "out hiphop". It seemed like you misunderstood me, because you started talking about what you would rather listen to when I wasn't talking about musical taste.
-Enough with the subjectivity stuff. I get it; my opinion's subjective. Thanks.
-One of the worst deliveries huh. Maybe we're listening to different tracks. *deletes comments that would cause unnecessary new argument*
-I don't know what BTJMO means.

"As for the race issue, the quote you cite was not the only place it was discussed here, check Robert's post:
"I think it's pretty disgraceful that he's regressed into a ethnocentric, not to mention inconsistent, mess. Ethnocentric because suddenly the ability to read music and a knowledge of prescribed music theory are now not merely ways of understanding music but are the only way to understand music. That he is echoing a particularly racist criticism previously leveled at jazz musicians doesn't go unnoticed..."" -Jay Smooth

Yes. I read this. What I said was that Joe was the only person who called the statement racist. Robert did not call the statements racist. He said Buck regressed into ethnocentricity and that Buck was echoing a racist criticism (one which he didn't discuss any further). I'm not going to attribute anything more or less to Robert's statement than exactly what he said.

"In other words, your "Lakers suck" comparison is missing the point.. Buck was judging African-American musical traditions as inferior specifically because they do not measure up to the narrow standards of white/European traditions, which he sought to apply as a universal measure of artistic merit." -Jay Smooth

Sigh... Actually Buck didn't judge African-American musical traditions as inferior in any of the quotes above. He referred to HIPHOP, not "African-American musical traditions". These two aren't the same. There are many African-American musical traditions. Hiphop is one specific African-American musical tradition. Also he didn't even say hiphop was inferior. He said he hates it. Also he didn't say anything about artistic merit.

Anyone who thinks those quotes are racist is reading more into the statements than what is there. Buck didn't mention race in the statements. You can make a comment about something produced by people who belong to a race without it being racist. If, buck had generalised about all music made by african-americans, that would be racist. If he had said I hate hiphop because it's black that would be racist. If he said I hate it cause it's not european, that would be racist. If he said thoery is important because it's white/european that would be racist.

It's painfully clear that those statements not racist. If anyone on this blog actually thinks they are, then prove it.

Jayo:

"Yes, me saying buck could out hip-hop most of those others is an opinion, but it's most likely true." -god

"Umm... do you understand the concept of subjectivity?" -Jay Smooth

Yeah, but I also usually assume there's such thing as objective truth. Some of my beliefs I don't hold strongly. I now I can be wrong, so these beliefs are up for challenge. I can be swayed. There's other shit that's still up for debate, but I'm pretty sure that I'm right about. Buck's hiphop knowledge and ability is one of those cases.

"To clarify, I didn't mean I like to listen to him best. I was thinking, better dj, better carry a show, greater hiphop knowledge, better delivery, better lyricist..." -god

"Again, I don't see what you're getting at. Do you believe any of that makes your statement less subjective? He has one of the worst deliveries I've ever heard, incidentally (BTJMO). " -Jay Smooth

What I was getting at was to try to explain what I meant by "out hiphop". It seemed like you misunderstood me, because you started talking about what you would rather listen to when I wasn't talking about musical taste.
-Enough with the subjectivity stuff. I get it; my opinion's subjective. Thanks.
-One of the worst deliveries huh. Maybe we're listening to different tracks. *deletes comments that would cause unnecessary new argument*
-I don't know what BTJMO means.

"As for the race issue, the quote you cite was not the only place it was discussed here, check Robert's post:
"I think it's pretty disgraceful that he's regressed into a ethnocentric, not to mention inconsistent, mess. Ethnocentric because suddenly the ability to read music and a knowledge of prescribed music theory are now not merely ways of understanding music but are the only way to understand music. That he is echoing a particularly racist criticism previously leveled at jazz musicians doesn't go unnoticed..."" -Jay Smooth

Yes. I read this. What I said was that Joe was the only person who called the statement racist. Robert did not call the statements racist. He said Buck regressed into ethnocentricity and that Buck was echoing a racist criticism (one which he didn't discuss any further). I'm not going to attribute anything more or less to Robert's statement than exactly what he said.

"In other words, your "Lakers suck" comparison is missing the point.. Buck was judging African-American musical traditions as inferior specifically because they do not measure up to the narrow standards of white/European traditions, which he sought to apply as a universal measure of artistic merit." -Jay Smooth

Sigh... Actually Buck didn't judge African-American musical traditions as inferior in any of the quotes above. He referred to HIPHOP, not "African-American musical traditions". These two aren't the same. There are many African-American musical traditions. Hiphop is one specific African-American musical tradition. Also he didn't even say hiphop was inferior. He said he hates it. Also he didn't say anything about artistic merit.

Anyone who thinks those quotes are racist is reading more into the statements than what is there. Buck didn't mention race in the statements. You can make a comment about something produced by people who belong to a race without it being racist. If, buck had generalised about all music made by african-americans, that would be racist. If he had said I hate hiphop because it's black that would be racist. If he said I hate it cause it's not european, that would be racist. If he said thoery is important because it's white/european that would be racist.

It's painfully clear that those statements not racist. If anyone on this blog actually thinks they are, then prove it.

yes, i recognize that there actually is quite a bit of diversity among people actually making hip hop. still, the majority are and have for a long time been black. and i think statement "the people behind hip hop" as well as the comments which followed were broad enough to at least imply a rascist tone. and i don't really think we should quibble over the distinction between rascism and ethnocentrism.

i also think its possible to recognize what different races have brought to the table, historically and musically, without discriminating against people making music now. i agree with wishwon that i just want to hear some hot music and i honestly don't care who makes it. but that doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize the roots of a genre. still, once you put your music out there, you can't control who its going to effect and what they're going to do with it. thats the nature of the game, and why it just aint right to say people are stealing this or that style. people inevitably are going to rally around good music.

Word up Joe!

I think it's pretty racist to call Buck 65 "ethnocentric" for saying rappers should learn some music theory. He's not saying black people don't have much theory. He's saying no one in hip-hop has much theory. You're the ones assuming he's talking primarily about black artists. Why are you making that assumption? By my count, two of the greatest black artists -- Dr. Dre and the Rza -- are also two of the only hip-hop producers to actually have a strong basis in music theory. (Rza learned to not only read but WRITE music for Kill Bill.)

I think Hendrix and many others prove you don't need to read music. But why can't Buck state an opinion without a bunch of people -- many of whom are probably white -- assuming he's making an "ethnocentric" statement?

hey: The reasons Buck's statements could be considered ethnocentric have already been explained here, repeatedly. And if you don't recognize that hip-hop is Black music, regardless of how many white people become a part of it, there's no point in any further discussion.

But either way, Buck himself has already realized he was tripping and apologized, so...

tone it down, captain condescending. i, like everyone in the world, understand that black artists invented and developed hip-hop. that said, you don't know if buck is talking about black artists or white backpackers. since he's a lot closer to the nerdy white scene, i wouldn't assume he's talking about black artists at all.

how sad that you immediately slip into calling someone racist when you disagree with them. and sorry for try to avoid that simple mindset. i didn't realize this was all just a dial-up hip-hop authenticity contest.

there's a difference between calling someone a racist because you disagree with them, and disagreeing with them on the basis that what they said was racist. i think most people here disagreed with buck 65 for the latter reason.

a lot of people making excuses for buck 65 are reading things into what he said that just aren't there. for instance this backpacker argument. he doesn't say backpackers aren't musical, he said hip hop isn't musical. he also challenged anyone to find a case (anywhere, i assume) that would prove him incorrect.

its funny how this has boiled down to arguing about the arguments, since as jay pointed out BUCK 65 APOLOGIZED. so people can keep making excuses if they want...it makes no difference at this point, he's the one who looks like an asshole no matter what is said here.

you can't go walking around in this world pretending that racism or racist mentalities don't exist. defending racist or ethnocentric statements just contributes to the problem. and whites being the underdog in hiphop definitely doesn't justify it a statement like buck 65s. especially when it comes to defining white peoples contributions to the music.

"hey":

"i, like everyone in the world, understand that black artists invented and developed hip-hop."

If you agree that hip-hop is Black music, then your suggestion that Buck might be referring only to white artists as irrelevant as it is outlandish.

The logic here is painfully simple:

1. As you have just agreed, Hip-Hop is still Black music no matter how many white people are working within it.

2. Therefore, when Buck 65 offers an opinion of Hip-Hop (and note his comments address all Hip-Hop, not "some" or "most"), he is offering an opinion of Black music. No matter how many white hip-hoppers his comments apply to.

3. Buck supports his opinion of Black music by appealing to standards that derive from white/European musical traditions. Standards that he errantly assumes are universally applicable.

This is the very definition of ethnocentrism.

joe: Yes, yes, and yes. This discussion is veering towards absurdity.

Dr. Dre knows music theory. All those albums he did way back when he had to play all those "samples". Ever hear him play piano?
I hate all these "educated" people who blurt out comments without knowing the fact. So he hates Rap. Who cares? But to make up reasons why that are all factually wrong. Just makes him look stupid. I for one don't like rap much. Some I do ... some I don't. Just a matter of taste.

It's interesting to see a definition of ethnocentrism that is light on the ethnic part of the term.

I'm gonna have to take a step beyond the absurd point of this discussion and disagree that rap and/or hip hop is patently Black music. I believe this for the same reason that I don't think classical music is white music.

Black culture may have produced hip hop, but clearly Buck 65 is proof that someone living hundreds of miles from the nearest Black person can still make hip hop and/or rap music. He has no direct connection to Black culture growing up... yet he makes rap and hip hop. How is that?

Culture is about your family and your neighborhood. Hip Hop and rap is a transracial cross culture. If we call rap music Black music, then we gotta call all modern popular music Black music. Then what happens if Black people stop making rap music, and only non-Blacks continue to make it? We don't call jazz white music? Yet prolly like 80% of the people playing and listening to jazz today are white. What about the fact that waaaay more white people listen to rap than Black people?

There are so many problems with calling rap Black music.

I guess the main problem for me is that calling mainstream hip hop or rap music Black culture is that it reduces Black culture to such a crude, simplistic, commerically-bastardized stereotype. People can't help but use it to form all sorts of false images and ideas about Black people and the Black community (including Black people themselves). Are you gonna tell me a handful of celebrities represent Black culture?

Meanwhile, the hip hop "underground" -- where the "true" hip hop elements of emceeing, graf, djing, and b-boying may be said to dwell -- is hugely populated by whites, latinos, and asians. Most Black kids aren't involved with this portion of the culture, and instead listen to the artists on the radio (the same artists that millions of non-Black are listening to, I might add).

Also, there is no interplay and give-and-take between the Black community and the mainstream artists. It is propaganda, pure and simple. Propaganda is not culture, unless you want to believe that Blackness is epitomized by materialism, sexism, and violence. I, personally, give Black culture a lot more credit than that. I believe Black culture is much more about redemption and rising above petty bullshit, and not always buying into what the mainstream culture is dictating. Sadly, Black culture seems to have lost its ability to rise above this latest situation of cooptation and dilution of the strong spiritual message that was once found in the music.

In conclusiion, I believe hip hop is cross-culture, not Black culture. Black culture is families and neighborhoods, and churches, not TV and magazines and other corporate brainwashing schemes.

Don't get it twisted,
Stay uplifted.

re: Buck's cultural exposure, never been there but my understanding is there's actually rather large Black population in Halifax, for whatever that's worth..

If we call rap music Black music, then we gotta call all modern popular music Black music.

And why is that a problem? I've been doing that, lol..

Then what happens if Black people stop making rap music, and only non-Blacks continue to make it? We don't call jazz white music?

Doesn't that support what I'm saying, though?

As far as the "hip-hop!=Black culture" debate, that's surely fertile ground for a separate post but I'm not even gonna touch it here, since it focuses on the lyrical content and Buck was strictly discussing the music..

lol. here i am preaching to the choir again. you just had to go and blow up my spot like that, jay. i was hoping to get another "we are just a rock hurtling through space" comment. oh well, i'll try again later.

;)

I would just like to congratulate everybody for being so gullible. Especially Ian.
I'd also like to congratulate you Ian for being an utter fuckwit.

We are a Rock hurling through space. There. haha

Wow, did I just stumble into a schoolyard website or something. Makes you realize how immature human beings can be. I don't take anything any artist (visual, written or musical) seriously. Just look, read and listen. If it moves you it moves you. I don't think Buck 65 is recist. What if you rephrase it like this "The people behind Bluegrass don't know a thing about music, they can't read music, don't know a thing about theory". What's that? White bashing? Hillbilly bashing, or comment about the actual people regardless of skin colour, and their ability to read music (which has been proven many times, has nothing to do with making great music). Ring ring ring, recess is over.

This is pathetic. Most great guitarists dont know how to read music either. That's a fact.

lads he is just stating his opinion. Why get all worked up about it?

I have heard Buck65 and that cracka doesn't know shit about music, music theory, melody, harmony, rythym or song writing. He does know how to sound like a variety of other popular rappers from the 80's and 90's. What a stupid thing for a stupid man to say. Fuck you Buck, I never liked you anyway. Your shit is like listening to a nerd talk over shitty beats recorded on 4 track. I would never have called you out on your amateur approach but if you wanna play that game. You ain't nothing special Buck, nothing at all. Why don't you carry around a book on songwriting on your art college bike. Go on with all the pretending and shit, thinking you know your damn music theory.

p's y'all
doug mason

This thread has been down for quite some time it would seem, so maybe no one will ever read this, but it has to be said. Regardless of my feelings toward Buck and his music, I have to air my total disgust with someone. Doug Mason, you truly are a simple minded fool. It's truly unfortunate that after so much intelligent well thought out discussion from both sides of the issue, you're ignorant garbage is the last thing that is read. Your comments scream your lack of knowledge about Buck 65, anyone who states that, and I quote,

"...that cracka doesn't know shit about music, music theory, melody, harmony, rythym or song writing..." -doug mason

has obviously not listened to his music.
Final answer- You're an idiot.

-Bowlsy

PS- Cracker is a derogatory term used to describe white people, and hence, is a racist comment, the fact that white people as a whole haven't been historically oppressed doesn't change that.

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ayoo man im white ye n i aint rascist to black people but why are people dissing all us whites for loving hip hop music when the white people were the first gangstas which your music is about?

nice blog you have here

im sorry to say your all morons
buck 65 is canadian im sorry to disappoint all you people who like to scream racism at the drop of a hat but we aren't burning crosses up here.

buck 65 was just saying the same thing common said before him,hiphop has been twisted into the westcoast disaster of rap, but no one called him racist because he is black. It takes no talent to make rap all you need to do is act hardcore and pretend you carry a 9mm and the kids love it
it's not recore executives in it to make great music anymore it's marketers who tell eminem that kids hate their moms and he should sing about that and all you morons gobble it up,
haha like it's going out of style.

I have to praise buck 65 for not selling out and actually trying to set standards and improving himself to bring better music
If we can all remember even the greatest EVER Krs one sang a song with that loser puff daddy

and now that raps going downhill there trying to commercialise hiphop
and no matter how much i love the intelligence in it now i cant have someone else telling me what i like
thats for the rest of the sheep out there

P.S. I read a comment that said real B. Boys dont listen to buck 65
eat it buddy because real b. boys are out robbing liquor stores not posting comments on a message board YOUR NOT A REAL B BOY NONE OF US ARE AND NONE OF THE RAPPERS ARE, THE ONES WHO WERE ARE DEAD!!

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There is a lot of talk here about Buck 65's comment about "The people behind hip hop". Without knowing the complete context of his words, I'd say it's fair to assume he means the record co. representatives, the promoters, the sales divisions, etc.

There is a lot more to the music (in this case - hiphop) industry than is visible on the surface. It's not just artists and producers, dj's and emcee's. Hell, those are basically the employees - they are not the promoters or the managers. They are not the CEO's.

He is stuck in the underground because he just isn't _perceived_ to be _MARKETABLE_ in the current hiphop industry. And he is probably pissed about it. He isn't taken seriously by the aforementioned groups of people (promoters, sales reps, record reps, etc).

Anybody who likes hiphop can listen to his shit and know that a majority of it is _damn_ _good_ hiphop. In fact it is more of a "true hip hop" style than all the bullshit you see on MTV.

kerrang: Why should musicians have to be able to read music?

"Because I'm a snob and that’s what I'm looking for and what I appreciate. I'm as elitist a bastard as you could possibly find."

Maybe just remember that Buck 65 is not taking himself as seriously as many of you seem to think he is. He is also talking a lot about the commercialized Hip-Hop that is seen throughout the popular music industry. It is based around sex, drugs and gang violence, and marketed for the most part to people who have had no experience with any of these things. We all know a "wigger" or two, don't we? What Buck 65 is saying is what many people say about pop-music - it is not about the music, but rather the image that it promotes or is promoted by. Maybe he doesn't know enough about "real" hip-hop music to really comment on it, but the music he is making is a lot more creative and original than a lot of the hip-hop on the market today. And besides, he's no longer going for hip-hop. Like he said, he wants more than the spoken word. He wants Tom Waits, not Ice Cube.

Holla and Happy Thanksgiving.

Can't wait for nerd rap to die.

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