October 08, 2004
A Genuine Surprise in Tonight's Debate
As an atheist/agnostic/non-believer, this may be the first time I've ever heard a presidential candidate, or any other prominent politician, refer to my beliefs in a tone that was not belittling or disapproving.. that did not implicitly remind me that I am less of an American than those who believe in some sort of God.
John Kerry is further to the right than I am on many issues, and you could say my vote for him will be of the "hold your nose" variety. But that was one moment when I felt genuinely happy to pull the lever for this guy.
Other than that.. not as decisive a victory as the first one, but Bush is clearly 0 for 2 now, right? What the hell was he so angry about? He looked like a pro wrestler doing his pre-match interview..
And what in damn hell did he mean with that "those drugs might come from a third world" comment? Was he referring to the inhabitants of Mars or Bizarro World? Either that or he was making blatantly racist assumptions about where dangerous drugs might come from.
Anyway, what did y'all think tonight?
Posted by jsmooth995 at October 8, 2004 11:06 PM
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It was an interesting debate to say the least. Both men slipped up a bit and I found a few Bushisms along the way... maternal group homes, internets, all those haters. But what is sometimes even more interesting about this specific type of format is the fact that you can see the voters reacting to the speeches. It is interesting to see Suzy and John Public's reactions as both candidates spoke. But what was also interesting was the lack of minority faces in the crowd.
Posted by: MN at October 9, 2004 12:26 AM
i absolutely think bush is 0 for 2. i know he is evil blah blah, but the degree to which he is unable to answer even the most elementary policy questions, or anticipate obvious challenges, never fails to amaze me. yeah that mention of maternal group homes was straight out of 1955. wha?? kerry is definitely to my right, but it's so refreshing to see even a moderate liberal after 4 years of ultra ultra conservativeness.
Posted by: sally at October 9, 2004 12:36 AM
In a broad sampling of Americans, I would guess this was an even draw, right down the middle.
Bush came back swinging and he definitely shored up any damage from the first debate. Instead of answering questions, he just wormed his way around the issues and diverted attention the facts. He delivered all the usual low blows and typical "my opponent is the most liberal tax-and-spend-liberal" in American politics. Typical no-substance politics.
Meanwhile, Kerry basically stuck to the issues, which didn't work as well against Bush this time. The only way to defeat a high-sleaze delivery is to get scrappy and be spontaneous.
The bottom line is that, like the religion issue... people simply want to BELIEVE in their candidate. This is about appearances. If people actually took the time to educate themselves... we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
As my mom says... these aren't really debates. They look like debates. And they say all the debate things. But in the end, it's just a show. It's a side-by-side pep rally, as befits the juvenile American mentality.
Posted by: eric at October 9, 2004 12:59 AM
I didn't see the whole thing start to finish and I wish I had because it was the most interesting debate I've ever watched. You mentioned this after the last debate, J., but where do you go online to see the complete unedited debate? I'd like to see the whole thing before the sound bytes and spin doctors tell me what they said.
As a friend mentioned I wish they would allow candidates like Nader and Badnarik to participate, because... ah... isn't this America? Don't we have the right to choose beyond the two party system? Would it ruin lives and take the bread out of the mouths of the homeless (who have no healthcare, but don't worry, Kerry has a plan for them!) if we actually *respected* the fact that other parties exist?
I personally am choosing Kerry as the lesser of the two evils in November, but what I found repugnant was the fact that he also jumped on the "let's hunt down and murder anyone we think is a terrorist, YAH!" band wagon.
As someone else mentioned here, what the heck the debates really have to do with anything is debatable in and of itself. And, although I wouldn't want to see it, a wrestling match or a real down home pi$$ing contest might tell me more about what's really going on with these guys. I guess we'll have to wait until they change things so Arnold can become President for that though.
~ E.
Posted by: Epiphany at October 9, 2004 01:54 AM
Posted by: eric at October 9, 2004 02:10 AM
I have a secret hookup online, that I cannot divulge :) hooked up through my old job.. I'm not sure where the general public can watch the debates live online, hopefully somebody can come by with an answer?
Acording to one of our fellow LiveJournalers, Badnarik and the Green party candidate actually got arrested trying to get into the debate?
Posted by: Jay Smooth at October 9, 2004 02:14 AM
NPR probably has a live stream.
Posted by: eric at October 9, 2004 05:12 AM
i was also impressed by kerry's answer on the abortion question. i feel you on being surprised by the lack of contempt in his tone when referring to non-believers, being one myself. it was typical of bush to respond to one of the more nuanced and intelligent arguments of the night by saying, "i'm trying to decipher that."
and how bizarre was that "need some wood?" comment? wow.
Posted by: todd at October 9, 2004 02:45 PM
dude slipped and said the nations forrests should be harvested...cracked me up...
Posted by: mikew at October 9, 2004 04:33 PM
Bush is 0-2. Barely. The consensus is an even split. Weak sauce.
The most comical thing during the debate came near the end when some old lady asked Bush to cite three mistakes he's made during his tenure. Dude didn't even admit one. It was phenomenally bad duck-and-weave politics and yokels didn't say shit. That's the sort of spot Kerry needs to jump in on. My girl thought he should have given Bush the old hand-on-the-shoulder "This is awkward, but you didnt answer the ladie's question" routine. Woulda been comedy.
Posted by: Sean at October 9, 2004 06:06 PM
Definitely could have slam dunked Bush on that one. But the risk factor would have been very high. It was the last question of the debate, if I'm not mistaken. And Kerry is anything but a risk-taker.
I respect Kerry for being diplomatic and sticking to the issues. I don't agree with much of his platform, but I admire his ability to stay cool and not get sucked into the personal skirmish. It was easy to see that Bush didn't answer that question. But let's face it... the question was a setup and Bush was wise not to answer it directly. It was a question that has no good answer, unless you think politics should be about humility, and of course... it isn't. Ironically, Kerry did actually admit to "making a mistake in how he talked about the war". Again, Kerry is clearly the more stately and rational person, but that isn't necessarily what will win the election.
Without a doubt, Kerry should have slammed Bush on the environment, but that might be the most difficult topic on which to deliver a slam dunk. Polls suggest that the vast majority of Americans want a cleaner environment, yet few people do anything about it. And most don't really understand the issues. As I heard one pundit mention, Kerry should have stuck to the simple messages, cliches, and quick jabs. He dropped too many names, statistics, and plans. Soundbite politics always triumphs in a debate. Read my lips. You're no JFK. Etc.
Posted by: eric at October 9, 2004 08:46 PM
About Canadian drugs: if they're so poisonous, how come Canadians aren't dropping like flies?
Posted by: Debby Randolph at October 9, 2004 09:33 PM
Hia! Landed on your site when I typed "hip hop" and "hong kong" into google.
It's definately 0:2 for Kerry. Watched the debate on TBV in Hong Kong and it was interessting watching Bush tripping. (incidental remark: 2046 is now showing in Hong Kong. If I ever want to become depressed on purpose I'll watch that movie or watch those people who are fanatically cheering for Bush )
Like 90 % of all non-Americans I'm hoping that Kerry will be elected as new president. Bush's image regarding foreign policy has gone down the drain, after displaying his unterest for the opinions of other nations so obviously and acting so not right in so many cases.
Posted by: Dicey at October 9, 2004 10:51 PM
I watched this 'debate' at 3 or 4 in the morning (due to the fact i'm in the Netherlands and all). Not to be offensive but i think Kerry is too smart for most Americans. His answer on abortion was nuanced -which is good- but i fear most people prefer thinking in terms of right and wrong because it makes life a whole lot easier for them. I also could not help noticing how staged this 'debate' (which no doubt had to serve as an exercise in rational democracy) looked. Was it by 'coincidence' that a young woman with blond hair and quivering voice asked her question concerning abortion?
Posted by: erwin at October 10, 2004 06:35 AM
Did anyone else notice that Bush seemed to call terrorists "haters"? I don't think he meant to say it, but it was hilarious nonetheless.
Posted by: AlexT at October 10, 2004 04:03 PM
Yeah, that "haters" comment was funny shit.
Erwin... the deal with a lot of these anti-abortion people -- especially the vociferous ones -- is that they are often unstable and insecure. A lot of times they are religious people who feel like everything is this battle between good and evil (whatever that means). They are the same people who think a stem cell is equivalent to a full grown human being. In other words, they are quite often stupid and superstitious. I don't mean to be condescending, I am simply trying to explain the culture behind it. I am certainly not suggesting that there aren't many smart people who don't support abortion, but support for abortion is correlated with religion, which is correlated with education. Just the facts.
Unlike the Netherlands, America is still very much full of religious people. And they belong to like 500 different denominations, much of which is Protestant. As you probably know, Protestant sects can be all over the place in terms of belief. And they breed some wild-ass notions about the world, life, good vs. evil etc. It is this religious population that the base of anti-abortion movement.
Most sane people recognize the hypocrisy of saying it is an "evil" act to kill a stem cell... and yet it is OK to run the biggest animal slaughterhouses in the world, and eat pigs, and cows, and chickens every single day of your life... without so much as acknowledging the killing involved (or the fact that the Bible has many laws about killing animals).
I must say, though, I'm not sure why you found the woman's blond hair to be significant. But I do agree that she seemed like she was on the verge of tears and definitely not stable.
Posted by: eric at October 10, 2004 06:10 PM
fuckouttahere bush murked dude.
Posted by: Jeb at October 10, 2004 11:14 PM
Eric,
as you said yourself "This [debate] is about appearances." The young and, okay i'll say it, 'white' woman with blond hair, who in addition looked quite vulnerable, insecure, and in need of protection from outside evil, fits perfectly within this system of representation. Put simply, in the minds of many, the aboration debate is basically a debate about right and wrong. Now, if we were to assign colors to these 'self-evident' notions of right and wrong, what would our options be if we wish to keep things as simple (and reductive) as possible? Who's going to represent the 'good'? And not just any good -but a good that is under threat and in need of rescue. Who has the most appeal? Given mainstream American ideas of what is 'beautiful' it (logically?) followed that a slim, young, woman -who seemed just to have come from an appointement with the honorable dr. Phil-with blond hair was chosen. She is the damsel in distress (a very old but still effective trope indeed).
Posted by: erwin at October 11, 2004 03:00 AM
Sure, maybe... but I think the audience was somewhat low on non-whites to begin with. I don't think the debate was THAT concocted. I can't imagine he was like "I gotta get a blond white woman to ask a question about abortion". And I don't her race as significant. Even if all anti-abortion people were white, that doesn't mean they are anti-abortion because they are white. Nor does it mean they make it a racial issue. I have never heard someone make abortion a racial issue. Sometimes you hear "class" arguments, but not race.
Again, the abortion issue is primarily a religious thing.
Posted by: eric at October 11, 2004 05:43 PM
Abortion in itself is not a racial thing. But i was talking about the way it is represented. Of all the diverse peoples that have come to, let's say, 'inhabit' the US why was this particular woman of Euro-American ethnicity allowed to ask the particular question? Why not use a man? Or some really obese woman, that according to mainstream standards would've been considered unattractive? Why not someone of color? Maybe i'm too suspicious, but it is interesting to try and notice 'what doesn't get said.'
Posted by: erwin at October 12, 2004 02:46 AM
According to the format of the debate, the questions were picked based on the questions. I think it is also safe to assume that most men wouldn't pose this question because this is really more of a women's reproductive rights issue. It would actually be somewhat unusual for a guy to pose this question, because it is primarily a women's issue. It would be like a Mexican guy complaining about ill treatment of Black people. Not that it is wrong, but just unlikely considering the format. People are going to ask questions that are meaningful to them personally. I think the only thing it is safe to assume is that this woman is religious. Beyond that it is pure speculation.
Again, the abortion debate is actually one of the more straightforward issues in American politics. It is heavily correlated with religion. We have more than enough issues tied to race in this country. Maybe if it were women of color getting abortions more than white women... it might be a different story. But that simply isn't the case. Abortion is common across the board... except among certain religious groups. It is more common in lower classes, but that is due to higher and earlier pregnancy rates. The more religious and the lower your class... the more likely you are to have an abortion. THAT is how it works. Race is not a significant factor. Nor is weight, fer chrissake.
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