I feel the same way. It is very surreal. It doesn't make any sense. And yet it is real - very real. I guess we just readjust, appreciate the things we have, draw new lines in the sand, and get ready for the battles to come. We can't do this by ourselves. And maybe things need to get worse -- much worse -- before they can get better. We must still appreciate the many gains we have made since the founding of this country, and realize that the general trend is toward enlightenment -- or apocalypse.

Well said, Jay. I feel so helpless right now, on the outside looking into that huge 'red' void. I mean, surely, everybody in that void can't feel that way, right? The election WAS close, so I'll try to take a positive out of that. To come so damn close. I feel like the '94 Knicks. If I hear the phrase 'moral fiber' again I'm going stab myself in the eye with a pencil. Religion played a huge role in this election. So much for separation of church and state. Blah. Exasperated.

I am there with you Jay. I sat most of the day unable to move, feeling angry, betrayed, hurt, and confused.

I just hope this is a wake up call and people don't just settle back into their shelters and shut the door until the next presidential election. We need the next three years to plan and be ready to execute in the 4th.

ditto. The worst part of all of this was waking up this morning and realizing that this is what america wants.

Fear has made us do some pretty crazy things in this country. Think McCarthyism, the Cold War, and even go back to the witch hunts.

This vote seemed to be based on fear.

However, the democratic vote seemed based on hate. Wow...where are we going?

I listened to Nader's speech last night as he tried to convince America that to vote for Bush or Kerry, is throwing your vote away. Today I feel that is true. What did I gain by voting for Kerry?

Anyway, let me plug the new group blog that will hopefully tackle the question "what do we do now?"

It's called "November Third" at
http://www.hiphop-blogs.com/politics

Time for The Underground Railroad to go on a swing state tour. The red state culture has gone too far. Don't waste your time trying to respect them- we give them too much already- more than they're willing to give us. What they need is some serious DISrespect. They need to be shamed. They need to be shown how lame their culture is and they need to be presented with a bold and convincing alternative. So round up your DJs and go make fans out of these assholes.

Montreal sends its condolences. I can only suggest that you leave your country before Bush's plans for The Draft goes through next year.

Man i'm so upset that kerry lost and these stupid diebold machines are the blame for kerry's lost.

4 more years of republican rule NO! Let's vote these guys out in 2006! Unite!

I've had this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach since last night and it won't go away. I can't believe I live in this country. I need therapy. We all do.

was it such a big surprise? honestly, i think people are gonna stop looking up there for where social change will truly occur, look towards our own communities and depend on this core to have our backs. its beyond the elections, its beyond the rich white men we pour our time and energies into getting elected into office. we are at a momentous political time right now and what that means is up to us to define. each and every one of us must define it.

look at the people in your own communities because in the end, they are the ones who has got your back for real.

Reading these comments and your posts, I can't help but smirk at the sad faces of you liberal elites. Not that I voted for Bush (I'm libertarian), but the fact that you would throw the leader of the free world (me, you, America), into the hands of the "democratic" socialist movement disgusts me. Are you so ignorant that you are blind to the way the democratic party has treated us? A vote for John Kerry is a vote for Saddam Hussein, a vote for the Viet Cong, a vote for a government of appeasement, a vote for slavery, and a vote for a lie. Vote libertarian next time, and maybe you can get the democratic party back in line. Now stop cryin' and take it like a man.

yamoronz, you have a helluva lot to learn. kerry is hardly 'socialist' and that is certainly not why people voted for him. if you think he's anywhere near being 'socialist' (or even progressive, really), then i'd hate to see you face to face with real socialism.. you'd probably explode.

Ha. I doubt that guy even knows what libertarianism is.

Thank you jay for not whining, complaining, and hating your country men, and saying you are embarressed and ashamed and pointing the finger at Kerry for being a loser.

Sometimes we lose in life and it sucks.

I know. When the HK elections went the way it is. I couldnt speak. I still haven't spoken about it. But I never ever started pointing fingers at other people.

Thank you.

A bit of sainity.

Wait, wait. Yes, the map shows a lot of red. But even within the red states (North Cack represent!), there are progressives and people just as upset as you all are. Don't lump us all together. We're working hard here to change people's minds--y'all in the blue enclaves have it easy on that front.

That which was written has come to pass. I'm sure that in reality none of us are really that surprised. The truth is that we've had too many wake up calls, too many chances to set things right--and we havent. After the first protest against the war in Feb 2003, when I saw police horses trampling mothers and their sons, I realized that this current paradigm was not going to change willingly. I also realized that everytime a so-called democrat-liberal-progressive whatever tried to stand up, it only brought more repressive measures. My current strategy is one of infiltration. Act like a republican, look like a republican, live like a liberal...and never pass up an opportunity to help another in need. The bright side of all of this is if you look at the prophecy, this period of time "the tribulation" will be realitivley short. Peace to you all!

Miss Lisa - I'm not sure why you think we disagree, you're basically saying the same things that I said :)

Jay -- I think a lot of us were feeling the same way yesterday... very alone and alienated at an America that even in the face of blatant lies, arrogance, and pandering to the religious right will still vote for someone like president Bush. With time the sting will dissipate and we'll get back to the grassroots organizing, activism, and social work that needs to be done at local levels to help combat the frightening direction the right-wing, non-checked-or-balanced government will continue to take us in.

(Self-link to my post about the election which I purposely kept to being more about my experience working at the polls: http://www.laze.net/fait/archive/2004/11/03/postelection_day_sleepiness_is_setting_in.php )

i'm in the same emotional sewer as you, jay...and the only thing keeping me somewhat afloat in the liquid shit of america is that i feel i'm doing some good at my job at a youth nonprofit. i've heard a lot of people talk about moving north, or further afield, and while i have no better idea about what to do than you, i know that the work has to be done here. the difficulties of expatriating aside, we'll never escape this america, and if everyone who feels as we do bolts, it's guaranteed to stay this way for longer. i have to look to the youth--have to believe that helping them think for themselves could someday turn the tides--at the very least, try and provide the sane people with some company and decent conversation in the dark days ahead.

Helen - I lived in Germany for 5 years, I know what socialism is. One characteristic is a disregard for free speech (Stolen Honour was blocked). Another is ridiculously high taxes (Canada, Germany) for everybody. Regardless of what Kerry said, he was planning on raising taxes on everyone. How else would he pay for the programs he highlighted in the presidential debates? Face it, both you and Jay were in the anybody but Bush camp. Voting like that doesn't make sense, which is why I'm satisfied with the election results. Don't vote on emotion, vote on logic. If the democratic party had a credible platform, and targeted the hiphop generation through policy (not just a compliment thrown at various commercial artists, ugh how fake), I'd consider voting democrat.

Jay - the libertarian party's foundation is in individual freedom and personal responsibility. You should look into this party, instead of one that is locking us up for life after three nonviolent strikes. But I know you won't, because you're the media. As the media, you're part of that elite group that outcasts anyone who disagrees with you, thus playing your part in our horrific 1984ish system. John Kerry authored a part of the Patriot Act that was later ruled unconsitutional. Bush signed it into law. Democrats and Republicans work as a team to gain more power for themselves. What happens to checks and balances when you start having partisan Supreme Court justices? Government should play as small a role in your life as possible. This is America's new party. With time and our hard work maybe you'll know what it means for our people as well.

Yamoronz there is a grain of truth to what you are saying...yes the Democrats really failed to put together a compelling message and present it to the youth. But Bush is not dealing in reality. Our country will go bankrupt trying to pay for a war it cannot afford by borrowing from foreign governments. This is a fact. Throwing "tax cuts" on top of this situation is totally insane. Is that what you voted for? fiscal insanity? Congress is going to increase the amount of debt our country is allow to assume...something like 8 trillion dollars. How much of our budget must now go to debt maintenance? How much of our budget is going to the military and Iraq and this so-called war on terror? Try answering these questions before doing a victory dance...

Yojimbot - Sorry, you are wrong. Most of the U.S. government's debt is owed to us - the general public. We finance our country by purchasing T-bills, notes, bonds and savings bonds as investments. That's also the reason we'll never go bankrupt. Tax cuts help out small businesses. These small business now have an incentive to 1) make more money, and 2) hire more people. When they make more money, the government gets more tax dollars. BTW, I didn't vote for Bush. He's too much for big government.I voted for Gary Nolan, the libertarian presidential candidate of NC (home to LB&9thwonder). As for Iraq, I would not want to abandon the Iraqi people now that we're there. They're better off now. POLL: Who would rather see Saddam Hussein back in power?

Yamoronz, great way to bring peeps over to the Libertarian cause: act like a condescending prick with all the answers.
The main thrust of libertarianism that I don't get is this: how do Libertarians plan to pay for all the government services we take for granted? I'm not even talking about welfare, etc. I'm talking about roads. I often hear "the private sector will take responsiblity for that." That's complete bullshit. It seems then that the general populace would be under the thumb of various corporate entities, with no choice on anything, and a steadily disolving infrastructure. Do you have any historical examples where libertarianism (fiscal) has actually worked? I'm all for the social aspects of libertarianism, but I just don't get how all the parts fit together. It seems like a selfish philosophy to me.

Have you been watching who's been buy up all of those t-bills recently? China and Japan. The same two countries that we have massive trade imbalances with and buy our bonds in order to perpetuate favorable currency/goods pricing. These two countries are struggling to escape their own financial/banking mismanagment by investing in our own. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Also, weren't the libertarians the people who went out to Brooklyn after that little boy was killed and had a "protest" to allow guns in NYC? Finally, tax cuts that are favorable only to corporations (and not small businesses as you incorrectly assert further indebt the country as a whole benefit no one in the medium to long term. The only tax reform I support is a better accounting of where the money is going, more child credit and deductions for education and healthcare. Want to benefit small business? Stop outsourcing tech jobs!

A selfish philosophy? Taking responsibility for yourself and your people is a selfish philosophy? Why don't you see liberals have been riding off the civil rights movement for years without doing a damn thing for us since then? This year, Medicaid won't pay for services disabled people(my son) need. The 14 year old who made a mistake and got pregnant is finding it harder and harder to get any help. Maybe she couldn't go through with an abortion. If that's selfish, so be it. Go sacrifice yourself, like Hillary Clinton said, for the greater good. Too bad for Hillary the greater good isn't the welfare mom or the crack seller in the pen. I may come off as condescending, but in reality I'm furious that people in this country don't know their facts from politician's rhetoric(fiction). Most Americans don't even know who's representing them in Congress, who's the local sherriff, etc., etc. How are we supposed to advance ourselves when we know how many times 50 was shot, but not how consistently liberals have voted against pro-black causes since the civil rights era? If you don't realize that Kerry and Bush are equally bad, and we need change, then don't read any further.
In a libertarian society, communities would band together to help each other out. If we live in the same neightborhood, state, country, whatever, we pay taxes for the roads. Voluntarily, or you volunteer not to use them. It's ironic that Benrad says "the general populace would be under the thumb of various corporate entities, with no choice on anything," because that is happening today. Many times widowers, poor black families, and others have been forced out of their homes for the construction of a Wal-Mart or townhomes or whatever "corporate entity" the government says will bring them in more tax money! In a libertarian free-market economy this could never happen because the government wouldn't have the power to allow these corporations to seize anything, and 2) if these corporations don't feel a need at a price people are willing to pay, someone else will.

yojimbot - You can look up for yourself the percentage of the debt owed to foreign governments. I don't live in NYC, so I don't know about that protest, or the little boy who was killed. Guns aren't allowed in NYC? Please elaborate. As for the rest...
These tax cuts benefit me and you, because my boss will pay me more and they benefit you because if you want to get this work he'll want to hook you with a job, so he can make more money. These tax cuts don't indebt the country. A tax cut is not borrowed money. George Bush's and liberals' unchecked spending is what is indebting this country. If you lost your techjob because of outsourcing, the tax cuts give you an incentive to start your own business!
This country is not going to hell because of the debt. This country is going to hell because our freedoms are slowly being eroded for security(jobs, terror, everything politicians try to scare you with).

I guess listening to all that Immortal Technique had my hopes too high for a just America. So much for the youth movement. So much for the separtion of church and state. Bush will keep us poor and religious and dictate to us like the Middle Eastern leaders that he's claiming to protect us from.

You show me a Libertarian, and I'll show you a Republican that smokes pot.

Dude, move to Haiti. They have low taxes. Somalia, too. AND warm winters. Free speech, no gun laws. Dude, you'll be in paradise.

You don't like government? Put your own house out when it starts to burn down.

You people crack me up. At least, until I imagine DFCS, the CDC, the National Parks system and FEMA being run by Enron, and then I want to poke your brain out with a stick and replace it with a better one.

Condolences from Australia. We have unfortunately just re-elected our Bush equivalent � Howard � so I know exactly how you feel.

For what it is worth I think this indicates a failure of democracy. Quite obviously the majority of Americans (and Australians) are simply uninformed and scared. That�s why they vote like this. So it is our job to deepen democracy and start to provide real debate and real alternatives.

It�s a long dark road ahead for all of us � just thank your lucky stars your not an Iraqi.

I couldn't believe this either. When you look at all the real issues, Kerry made more sense. However Bush was slick in bringing in all the gay marriage ban stuff into the campaign because he could distract the people away from issues like the economy and health care. I guess we gotta give it up for the architect Karl Rove, huh?

wrong war, bad economy, no homo= presidency?

Jay, your comments articulate the feelings of so many people around this country. There were many tears shed by myself and others yesterday as feelings of hopelessness, anger, fear and most importantly confusion englufed many Americans. The conspiracy theories can flow, but the truth is that over half of America would rather vote for a President based on moral values than action. This is real and there needs to be less "us" (the left) versus "they" (the right), because when it comes down to it, the leaders of this country thrive on our divisions (you know, divide and conquer).

The youth of this country did not go out and vote because we've been told that we're apathetic and lazy. We have internalized a feeling of hopelessness and have been trained to think that our actions are insignificant in the light of corporate greed, war, and power. There are young revolutionaries all around, but our idealistic view of revolution scares us from action. We see famous revolutionaries (MLK, Malcolm) and think I can't do that, I'm just one person. We're not alone. We're not just one person.

Conservative v. Liberal, Bush v. Kerry, it's not a dichotomy. Complex problems are going to need complex solutions and we must be the ones to find those solutions. Hopelessness only paralyzes action so now we must move forward.

They shutting kids down trying to go to Canada though, I applied under three different types of immigration, and they denied each one. I will try the illegal way and apply for refugee status.
Peace be upon you, by the grace of Allah.
-14th

Everyone goes on about the "mandate" and "over half the population", but the fact is that Bush got about 1/4 of the US adult population to vote for him, and half of those wouldn't except that they haven't YET realized how much he's misrepresenting things to them. The backlash will flicker during the 2006 elections and by 2008 the far fake right will be so thoroughly discredited...assuming, that is, that this fucknut doesn't blow up the whole world by then...

and here i thought i was the only one that cried on Wed...

watching Jon Stewart and listening to Howard Stern helped a bit but not much. I too am trying to deal with the sobering reality that our country has been overthrown by the religious right on all fronts. Anytime a Senate candidate can openly state that single mothers and pregnant women should not teach school ((!!) and win on that platform, something is deeply wrong here...and i can't even wrap my mind around the crushing blow to the gay rights movement...its just too much...

I just read the post by jsmooth995 and was very touched. I was one of several Democratic volunteers who traveled 1,000 miles from Houston, TX to Pueblo, CO to get out the vote and try to defeat George Bush, and I am as shocked and upset as many of the rest of the country. Our group of 14 people worked several 12 hour days going door to door trying to get Democrats out to the polls, having them get angry and irritated at us after coming so far from our jobs (for us who are lucky enough to be employed, and I am not), only to have John Kerry concede a tight race to a person I can nicely call a neo-Nazi. As a gay person, I am very afraid of what will happen, especially in ultraconservative Texas where I live... Please let's all hope and pray for the soldiers in Iraq, and for ourselves, because me and the other volunteers did all we could, and it was not enough.

Some notes from Cincinnati....

I was encouraged by the young turnout at the poll I was working. Lots of young people! I guess all the voter outreach here in the battleground state, worked after all... just not quite well enough.

The scary thing is, i don't know what more we could have done. I recieved no less than 40 calls in the final two weeks --- from recorded messages of Sarah jessica Parker, to countless pleas from the volunteers at the Kerry campaign, and I'm not even a swing voter! I was decided! but they still pleaded with me!

And the calls aren't all. I was amazed by the kind of efforts people went to this yea, and the RECORD numbers of people they got to turn out... lined up at 5:30 in the morning. it was amazing.

So I think the left is more invigorated than ever.

So to still lose!

I see why people hate the Lakers (I won't mention the Yankees here)

So my point is... this is testimony to what we're up against. This is for real! You're right Jay! And no fakin this time.

And you're right also that those of you in NY live in a comfortable oasis.

Just two nights before the election, on HALLOWEEN for christsakes, i was one of a mere 40 odd protesters at Bush's huge stadium rally, and here I witnesed the kinds of things we all imagine, but rarely ever get to see first hand --- 10 year olds in red camo making racial slurs and calling me a "f*@king faggot," christians declaring that "theres no hate in there" (the stadium) and suggesting I "get an education," old women calling me a "speed freak," a 75 year old man giving me the finger and trying to fight me, etc etc. I won't even mention the contless people who told me to "take a bath" (huh?), and "get a job" (HUH?). Have we gotten nowhere, people?

I was amazed. It's more than just ignorance we're up against... it's a real contemt for reason, and common human decency!

So I'm feeling cynical too Jay! I think this is the beginning of the end! Christianity and Germanic tribes toppled the Roman empire, could this be a pattern maybe? (If this is what Christianity has become, than f%#k Jesus!). I'd like to hope not.

Theresa Heinz Kerry was more optimistic. She used South africa as an example recently, pointing out that it IS possible for countries to move huge strides backwards (remember, there wasn't always aparthed), but it's ALSO possible for countries recover in the face of incredible opposition, when no one believes that they can (i should mention here that I though tit was great that John Edwards pointed out in the debate that Dick Cheney didn't support Mandela!). Let's hope we can rectify this mess we're in!

This is bullshit. Right now, web surfers crunching numbers are finding not dozens, not hundreds, but thousands of bad results.

Franklin county Ohio was alerted to its problem by web surfers who noticed one precinct gave over 4,000 votes to Bush...but there were only 638 voters! ( http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-president.php?story=dispatch/2004/11/05/20041105-A6-01.html )

Wake up! People, get up on Monday and MAKE THEM COUNT THE GODDAMN VOTES!

Everyone I know is talking about this today, look into it.

Look at this chart:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/exit_poll.gif

That should tell you all you need to know.

We have been asking for a paper trail for YEARS now, and lo and behold, Kerry WON only in places with a verifiable vote and this win matched the exit polls.

In places with electronic, no trail voting, Kerry won the exit polls but lost the final count. Get real!

Or you could just go to the back of the bus and keep quiet, because gee, we're tired and despressed.

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said.

Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.

---------------------------------------
Suprised America???? My bet is that he stole it again but this time, in a smarter way.

That's creepy.

And we all thought Kerry would battle to the end, unlike Gore. So much for that! Guess he's trying to be dignified, what ever that means.

Like I said... beginning of the end!

I'm not giving up though.

The system should consider removing the 'Winner Take All" with the Electoral Votes. The small markets (us) will always be overshadowed by the masses. We have 48 months to Re-Live "Rock The Vote'

this is the same country it was on Nov. 1st.

If you're surprised by that, maybe the sun being up tomorrow will surpise you.

Read about any number of events in the past, including the Gold Rush, The Land Rush, the war in the Philipines, the Iran Contra "affair" or whatever. just pick a story, try to read about it, and viola, you won't be surprised.

this ain't nothing new. same as it ever was.

Now that I've gone through the five stages of grief, I don't know about you, but I'm ready to get my fight on. The Christian Right used grassroots tatics to take over gov't. We can do it, too.

I did the same thing Jay except my reason was a little different: http://shaysblog.com/index.php?cat=21
http://shaysblog.com/index.php?cat=19

Another one for the heap of criminal evidence.
Computer Loses More Than 4,000 Early Votes

POSTED: 6:43 am EST November 5, 2004

Jacksonville, N.C. -- More than 4,500 Carteret County votes have been lost because officials believed a computer that stored ballots electronically could hold more data than it did....

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/302304.shtml

OK, mourning period's over, here's where the "this is what America wants" bullshit ends. That's exactly how Bushco's trying to spin this.

And yet nearly 56 million Americans voted for John Kerry, more votes than ANY candidate has received in any previous election. And Kerry was hardly an ideal candidate for many voters--Anybody But Bush almost won!

Sure the Reps outmaneuvered the Dems, sure there's a lot of work to do, sure this Administration has the wayback machine set for the 19th century. But keep this in mind: George Bush begins his second term with the support of barely half the electorate, with the knowledge that there were 56 votes cast against him--more votes than have ever been cast against a president.

56 million Americans agree with you that Bush's first term was not acceptable. Just keep hammering that number home until they hear us, acknowledge us, and recognize that we too are America. This remains a deeply divided country, and 56 million men and women are on our side.

There is no mandate.
Keith

Here's a great report from MSNBC last night:

http://www.armyofone.info

292 million Americans, about 200 million of those voting age, 59 million went for Bush. So actually about 30% of eligible Americans (seem to have) voted for Shrub.

Britney Spears probably has a clearer "mandate"

J and Co.

note, the Co. is us, all of us reading this,
well, not the fucked up neoCONs that is.

well, talk about stealing it, reports about
the scannning voteing machines were the key,
their internal results were flip floped,
the bush votes became the kerry, votes ...
if you look at this, read about it.

also, funny thing, they did not help out
the repub. a. keys running agains Obama
in Chicago, he, the rebub. was left to loose.

really look at some of the counties, that
were/are 70% demo and 30% repub, bush got
70% of the votes and kerry got 30%, whats
up with that? this flip floping happened in
many counties.

Now here flock the conspiracy theorists. LOL. All these claims have stats to make em sound plausible, and in some cases, seem to come from credible sources. Unfortunately for you Kerry(democrat?) demagogues, none of the most cited theories hold up to scrutiny. Plus, to top it off, the people who'd most benefit from these conspiracy theories don't give a damn about them. That should tell you something. "At this point the number of irregularities brought to our attention is not going to change the outcome of the election," said DNC spokesman Jano Cabrera. "The simple fact of the matter is that Republicans received more votes than Democrats, and we're not contesting this election."

Considering that Democraps have been caught in vote rigging almost as often as Repugnicans, Repugnican lack of interest in the massive amount of errors/fraud/etc speaks volumes.

from a foreign view you were bound to lose, two parties and two eggheads to choose from? alienation is worldwide and not an american thing even if it looks like it came from your direction it moves freely like a storm. america looks like a new ussr with small moneyfolds for poor people and briefcase dittos for the rich minority. but to the gay issue, stop holding the pornsign up high and the people will give you some more slack. you can present a nicer front than cheap porno-ads all over internet. talk with your friends to back off. straight people won't stick their hands in yours and tell what they prefer in the bedroom, so why should you?

Listen, the election was fixed just like the last one. Bush and crew had 4 years to prepare. Anywho, the only way to really change anything is to really get involved in the political process. It starts at the lower level with the city politicians, judge's, and officials in your state. We can make a change, we just have to play by the rules set up. Only then can the rules change to help America. Americans have to help Americans in order for the nation to honestly change.

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