January 06, 2005
Thoughts on Greg Tate in the Voice
I have mixed feelings about this Greg Tate piece.
On the one hand, he's saying what we've all been thinking for a long time, which is nice.
On the other hand, he's saying what we've all been thinking for a long time, which makes most of it strike me as old news. Stuff we've all discussed with each other 100 times and blogged half to death.
But on the other hand, he says it all more vividly than most of us can, in a document that will reach many people who never read/talk to us. So there's gotta be value in that.
Yet on the other hand, at times I feel like Greg succumbs to the big lie here. Seeing no value in hip-hop itself as a musical form, only in what it seeks to achieve outside the realm of musicality. A self-help guru would say that hip-hop as envisioned by Greg Tate is not capable of true self-esteem, only other-esteem.
(and now that I think about it even his Street's Disciple review, though dead-on in everything it does address, shows little awareness that this is a musical work being reviewed, that it matters at all what the music sounds like.)
I dunno. What do y'all think? I turned off typekey to try a more subtle anti-spam gambit, so posting should be easier now.
Posted by jsmooth995 at January 6, 2005 06:32 PM
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You let him off easy Jay. That article is hackery, done by a respected hip-hop journalist. When Stanley Crouch and McWhorter write their misguided essays we laugh it off cuz they have no credibilty.
But Tate does. And the cover of the Village Voice does. But that article sucks. And sadly, no one has said so...yet.
Of course I'll explain more in my corner.
Posted by: Hashim at January 6, 2005 08:53 PM
Posted by: Hashim at January 6, 2005 10:25 PM
Hashim, to be fair i was fronting on the article on jeff's comment section before jaysmoove even posted about it! ;) but I'm going to read yr shit now. If there's more to say, I'll be posting tonight.
Posted by: David at January 6, 2005 11:26 PM
This is when i love blogville, watching stuff like this play out.
Posted by: Jay Smooth at January 7, 2005 12:32 AM
oh - y'all know there's probably another meme behind this. i just can't believe i'm so engrossed in my own life and work that i missed a greg tate piece on 30 yrs of hip-hop. funny, when i was studying to be a journalist as an undergrad - it was greg tate who i studied. so far the beginning of this article i truly get. at the same time i get what you're saying about the big lie j. as an old head, who grew up in the bronx when a lot of this shit was starting i know it wasn't all positive - it was art. pure and simple. but greg kinda reminds me of a leroi jones/amiri baraka with jazz and his Blues People. i'm sure i'll have lots more to say later once i thoroughly read jeff's post, hashim's post, and tate's piece.
it's so funny this lambasting of the hip-hop industry by him though, folks like he and nelson george became who they were b/c they were able to write about hip-hop at a time when no one else would or could. the rap industry feeds a lot of hungry african-american people.
Posted by: lynne at January 7, 2005 12:36 AM
I respect Tate. That man is on another level. He demonstrates just that with his personal musical forays, I think. I think like many of us he imagined what the potential of this art form could have been and for him and many of us it hasn't quite turned out that way.
Re: "I remember the Afrocentric dream of hiphop's becoming an agent of social change rather than elevating a few ex-drug dealers' bank accounts. Against my better judgment, I still count myself among that faithful."
Like I said earlier, I too dreamed of hip-hop as a transforming vehicle, broadly cleansing societal ills. But yeah, I was like at the most 19 at the time a scratching my way around in the dark back then. In other words, I grew the eff up.
Where drives the nail home is his take on commercialized hip-hop and super-mechanized commericialization starting with Rapper's Delight right up to 50 Cent. Right now we have a bunch of concepts rather than artists.
As to Tate being akin to a Stanley Crouch, there's a gulf between the two most likely. However, every once in awhile ideas converge. For example, could anyone imagine agreeing with Crouch's take on misogynitic, violent lyrics. There's nothing wrong with spanking the baby every once in awhile. Everything isn't right about hip-hop and there's nothing wrong with saying just that.
Posted by: metalface at January 7, 2005 10:05 AM
"concepts rather than artists"
...that's a nice way to put it.
Posted by: eric at January 7, 2005 03:22 PM
Hashim, if you only want your music to make you dance, I can't really agree with that. I'm not saying hip hop's only value is as a political or social vehicle, the form itself is beautiful and still vital. But Tate's not explicitly saying hip hop is dead, just that it's disappointing how at the moment it's all "Sugar Hill" and multi-level marketing, no "The Message". It's sad when "Mosh" is the only big political song I can think of from the last few years.
Posted by: gabe at January 7, 2005 03:44 PM
Unless you wanna count "I Can" (which is nice and uplifting), or "Why" (which is a pretty mixed bag).
Posted by: gabe at January 7, 2005 03:46 PM
Gabe, I was just using a hyperbole to make a point.
But I DO believe that once you stop dancing to hip-hop you stop understanding it.
Posted by: Hashim at January 7, 2005 05:40 PM
I'm glad you're talking about hip hop as an artform Jay, instead of something that should explicetely be political, seeking other-esteem as you say. But I wonder, did hip hop truly start as an ARTFORM? I know niggaz who craft their beats, rhymes, and vocal abilities and all that---but did the up and comers back in The Bronx looked at it in the same light...say, the same light as Charlie Parker when he was blowing his horn like mad trying to match the intricate thought patterns in his brain! Truth is, those articles stem from a belief of hip hop music as a social event--instead of what it inherently is--just music! Oh yeah, the mainstream sucks, but in 20 years who will be the 'legendary' rap cats getting praise?? People like El-P, Aesop, and of course Jigga...but I don't see any long-lasting artistic impact 50 Cent may cause at the heart of THE MUSIC. dig?
Posted by: Alex at January 7, 2005 07:23 PM
Posted by: SUMwon at January 8, 2005 04:48 AM
Nuff respect Jay. And big ups to the big lie blog. You know how I feel. Hip Hop is not about politics, although there is political hip hop.
I'm still gonna ride with Ice T, "it's a horror movie, it's supposed to end horribly".
Posted by: k. orr at January 9, 2005 04:10 AM
Thank you Jay Smooth. And major props on the "Big Lie" post. I missed that blog.
I'm on the fence with Gregg Tate's piece. I agree with some of his viewpoints.
But Gregg is no Stanley Crouch. Stanley hates everything and anything that is hip-hop culture.
I think Gregg is disappointed of what hip-hop has now become -- a marketing tool.
But I love hip-hop -- all the good stuff and the bad stuff. I can't imagine myself abandoning the music and the culture.
I'm going to survey the reactions.
As usual, Jay, great post.
Happy New Year . . .
Posted by: Trent at January 10, 2005 12:25 PM
J, I disagree with you here for the same reason that I disagreed with Hashim's piece, i.e. you are arguing against something Tate never said. Tate never said he sees no musical value in hip-hop and that it should be used as a political vehicle, to the contrary, he merely suggests that hip-hop artists could use the platform they have to speak to mention political issues more often. I don't really see anything in the article that creates the impression that Tate only wants a bunch of Public Enemy records coming from rappers, to the exclusion of all non-political content. Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading the same thing as other people.
Posted by: spirit at January 12, 2005 02:32 PM
Hashim: So was Tate. And you felt obligated to take him to task for it. And really, danceability is not the issue at hand. Tate isn't asking for everything to become stridently political and lose the party element, he's just asking for hip hop to have SOME level of social/political content. It seems to be regressing, at this point. So basically, what spirit said. Putting "funeral" in the title was sensationalistic, but the point is to spark discussion.
Posted by: gabe at January 12, 2005 03:12 PM
Bump Dat.
Spirit's on point with that.
Posted by: metalface at January 12, 2005 03:22 PM
The only way to get things done with regards to hip-hop and our enslaved past is to make moves as a community, (proactive moves people) and recognize that our antagonist - European Americans (most of them) and ignorant black folk have forged a unique symbiotic relationship to cock block those of color and conscience who recognize the wrongs that have been consciously placed upon them and their people for so many centuries. Tate’s harsh text is justified for the simple fact that hip-hop was the only significant collateral that so-called African Americans had which could have moved them ‘closer’ in a game in which they have been repeatedly handed their hat. You have to take a more affronted approach to everything that gets assimilated and profited to the other team because each time you settle for hearing your own pseudo intellectual ponderings, they (you know who) get that much further ahead.
I can safely say that hip-hop, R&B, BET, UPN are doing more harm than good to our community. The Jury isn’t out on TVOne yet.
“Those who do nothing are left to be ruled by their inferiors”
Posted by: Trekz at January 12, 2005 03:51 PM
Spirit: Nope, Tate says a lot more in this piece than you say he said.
Because of the particular concerns he raises, Tate judges hip-hop as failure, tells us a genocide has been committed and our folkways have ben destroyed, and suggests we have nothing to celebrate, because of hip-hop's extramusical shortcomings. The verdict that he renders can only be reached if you negate hip-hop's musical value and any other value it has has, outside of its role as an "agent of social change."
Posted by: Jay Smooth at January 12, 2005 05:16 PM
Also, you are arguing against things Inever said, cuz I never suggested that Tate was saying this:
"I don't really see anything in the article that creates the impression that Tate only wants a bunch of Public Enemy records coming from rappers, to the exclusion of all non-political content."
And again, I've made it clear throughout that I believe Tate's assessments are mostly correct, andthat I mostly share his hopes and wishes, it's just the extreme conclusions he draws that are off-base.
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