January 11, 2005
More on Greg Tate
I gotta say, as I re-read Tate's piece and all the reaction it's produced (how can you not love blogville at times like this?), I am less convinced the piece is as balanced as O-Dub gives it credit for. O says "I think people are making certain presumptions of Tate based on what he wrote and didn't write," but it appears to me the naysayers are going strictly by what's in the text, while O is giving Greg the benefit of the doubt and presuming we should fill in the blanks a certain way. And while I suspect O is correct in much of his presumption, you can't blame others for going by what's actually on the page.
O says Tate "provides a balanced approach to both celebrating hip-hop's achivements while also being candid about its shortcomings," but where does Tate's text ever celebrate any achievements, at least without turning the compliment backhanded in the second half of the sentence? And O doubts this is a "Hip-Hop Is Dead" piece, but it damn sure reads like a eulogy to me:
"Twenty years from now we'll be able to tell our grandchildren and great-grandchildren how we witnessed cultural genocide: the systematic destruction of a people's folkways."
You can't have a genocide without something dying. If that something is not hip-hop in its totality, certainly the only part of hip-hop that Tate values is dead or dying in his eyes.
And that's the problem with the piece.. even when correct in his observations Tate cannot place them in their proper context, because he doesn't see there's so much more to hip-hop beyond the aspects he addresses.
I can only wish Tate's actual text was as sharp as everything O-Dub extrapolates from it:
The question this comes back to is this: what is the relationship between hip-hop, as a Black cultural form, and the Black community that it emerges from? Does hip-hop speak to the realities of that community? And if it does not, what are the implications of that disconnection?
Great questions, but as I read Tate's text he's not really asking them, so much as giving pat and myopic answers to them. As Oliver himself says, there's a lot more to go by than lack of politics when judging whether hip-hop sucks in 2005. So many other pieces of the puzzle Tate is missing when he answers his own question "what are we celebrating?"
And that's what I think the younger heads are reacting to, it's not that the issues Greg raises are irrelevant to their generation, but that Tate fails to put those issues in their proper context. It's not that he shouldn't be asking these questions, it's his omission of all the other questions you need to ask before you can render the type of verdict he hands down.
So as with much published work these days, Tate is lucky blogville is around to fill in all those missing pieces. But then again maybe we're also lucky Tate is around, to push us towards filling them.
EDIT: Pretty sneaky, O-Dub, not telling us you also had this one in the chamber.
Posted by jsmooth995 at January 11, 2005 08:44 PM
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Articles like the one that O-Dub wrote enervate me by the third paragraph, if I even decide to push that far.
Posted by: Soul Khan at January 12, 2005 12:38 AM
rather than critique tate's article, i just wrote my own in response..."hip hop ain't dead". click my name to peep it.
Posted by: hardCore at January 12, 2005 11:21 AM
I'm just ashamed I had to look up "enervate" on dictionary.com.
And Jay - look, I'm not trying to be a Tate apologist and I really don't think I'm giving him too much credit but hey, I can appreciate that people have different interpretations of the essay. I take it back - maybe Tate is saying "hip hop is dead" but it's one of the better articulations of the sentiment. I hear you though Jay - that maybe Tate's not really trying to speak to all generations but how do you think he could have approached his message differently?
Frankly, had I read Tate's piece previous to filing my own, I probably wouldn't have bothered to write mine to begin with. Which likely would have made those enervated by mine happy :)
Posted by: Oliver at January 13, 2005 02:51 AM
Greg Tate - what are you celebrating? That you know how to recycle outdated rhetoric? Tate's problem - evident in every single piece he has written on hip hop - is that he is guilty of exactly the same angst he speaks of. Tate critiques hip hop in circles he knows will never have any impact on the culture itself. While aware of market forces that affect the culture, and use it - Tate uses hip hop for his own lyrical masturbation. He gets off on being known as a hip hop critic - while completely distancing himself from the culture. Tate is no different than the mc who has disconnected himself from the hood for capital gains. He is a poser, an observer, a cynic, but not a part of the culture itself. His interest in eminem and white folk - seem more like
obsession than critical thought. While any "real hip-hop head" looks at eminem as an irrelevant character that will come and go (i.e. 3rd Base, House of Pain, Everlast, etc.) -- Tate elevates him and white people in general to a level of importance that is not felt in any hood in the nation, let alone the world.
The tongue lashing he gives hip hop as a whole is also not felt in any hood in the nation, or the world. With the exception of a few pedigreed elitists and ever-so-eager-to-please-white-lefties - Greg's words are empty.
To understand a culture truly - you have to be a part of it. Tate is as much a part of hip hop as is Dolores Tucker, Clarence Thomas, and Clavin Butts --- just like em gets no ghetto pass, neither do they. Self hatred is nothing new...but damn son use your degrees to do something more productive with your life. The role of self-hating critic is tired, played and unnecessary.
The reason why we can bounce our heads to 50, Mobb Deep, Jay, Nas, Kanye, Talib, Dre, Buck, Game, etc. w/no contradiction is b/c we have love for our culture/our music. While we all wish the lyrics were deeper - at the end of the day we love the voice (as Guru said), the beats, and the music. Lyrical content is only one aspect of the music, and the music is only one aspect of the culture.
What is devoid in the bullshit hip hop critiques is a recognition that motherfuckas are really running shit. Russel, Puffy, Steve Stoute, Irv (oops) Gotti, Jay, Kevin Liles, Dame Dash, Master P, Suge, Benzino, JD, are DECISION MAKERS. The we are powerless to whitey shit doesn't fly anymore. Decision making = power. Don't 4get at the end of the day - the MAN sold PE and KRS and X-CLAN to the masses b/c guess what ---- the mothafuckin music was hot. Shit is about green, always has been.
IF we want to glorify the artists of the past and call their names out - than lets be honest about their "moral fiber." I love George Clinton for his music but everyone knows he's a coke head. I love Marvin for smooth words but he was cracked out and had to be rested by his own pops. Miles beat his women and gladfully talked about himself as a true pimp before he died. All this to say enough with the romanticizing for some perfect day that never existed.
All of our collective human shit has always stunk... but folks that's not the point. Hip Hop is here to say - minstrel show- fuck you Greg.
Posted by: Tired at February 9, 2005 12:18 AM
Greg Tate - what are you celebrating? That you know how to recycle outdated rhetoric? Tate's problem - evident in every single piece he has written on hip hop - is that he is guilty of exactly the same angst he speaks of. Tate critiques hip hop in circles he knows will never have any impact on the culture itself. While aware of market forces that affect the culture, and use it - Tate uses hip hop for his own lyrical masturbation. He gets off on being known as a hip hop critic - while completely distancing himself from the culture. Tate is no different than the mc who has disconnected himself from the hood for capital gains. He is a poser, an observer, a cynic, but not a part of the culture itself. His interest in eminem and white folk - seem more like
obsession than critical thought. While any "real hip-hop head" looks at eminem as an irrelevant character that will come and go (i.e. 3rd Base, House of Pain, Everlast, etc.) -- Tate elevates him and white people in general to a level of importance that is not felt in any hood in the nation, let alone the world.
The tongue lashing he gives hip hop as a whole is also not felt in any hood in the nation, or the world. With the exception of a few pedigreed elitists and ever-so-eager-to-please-white-lefties - Greg's words are empty.
To understand a culture truly - you have to be a part of it. Tate is as much a part of hip hop as is Dolores Tucker, Clarence Thomas, and Clavin Butts --- just like em gets no ghetto pass, neither do they. Self hatred is nothing new...but damn son use your degrees to do something more productive with your life. The role of self-hating critic is tired, played and unnecessary.
The reason why we can bounce our heads to 50, Mobb Deep, Jay, Nas, Kanye, Talib, Dre, Buck, Game, etc. w/no contradiction is b/c we have love for our culture/our music. While we all wish the lyrics were deeper - at the end of the day we love the voice (as Guru said), the beats, and the music. Lyrical content is only one aspect of the music, and the music is only one aspect of the culture.
What is devoid in the bullshit hip hop critiques is a recognition that motherfuckas are really running shit. Russel, Puffy, Steve Stoute, Irv (oops) Gotti, Jay, Kevin Liles, Dame Dash, Master P, Suge, Benzino, JD, are DECISION MAKERS. The we are powerless to whitey shit doesn't fly anymore. Decision making = power. Don't 4get at the end of the day - the MAN sold PE and KRS and X-CLAN to the masses b/c guess what ---- the mothafuckin music was hot. Shit is about green, always has been.
IF we want to glorify the artists of the past and call their names out - than lets be honest about their "moral fiber." I love George Clinton for his music but everyone knows he's a coke head. I love Marvin for smooth words but he was cracked out and had to be rested by his own pops. Miles beat his women and gladfully talked about himself as a true pimp before he died. All this to say enough with the romanticizing for some perfect day that never existed.
All of our collective human shit has always stunk... but folks that's not the point. Hip Hop is here to say - minstrel show- fuck you Greg.
Posted by: Tired at February 9, 2005 12:21 AM
Greg Tate - what are you celebrating? That you know how to recycle outdated rhetoric? Tate's problem - evident in every single piece he has written on hip hop - is that he is guilty of exactly the same angst he speaks of. Tate critiques hip hop in circles he knows will never have any impact on the culture itself. While aware of market forces that affect the culture, and use it - Tate uses hip hop for his own lyrical masturbation. He gets off on being known as a hip hop critic - while completely distancing himself from the culture. Tate is no different than the mc who has disconnected himself from the hood for capital gains. He is a poser, an observer, a cynic, but not a part of the culture itself. His interest in eminem and white folk - seem more like
obsession than critical thought. While any "real hip-hop head" looks at eminem as an irrelevant character that will come and go (i.e. 3rd Base, House of Pain, Everlast, etc.) -- Tate elevates him and white people in general to a level of importance that is not felt in any hood in the nation, let alone the world.
The tongue lashing he gives hip hop as a whole is also not felt in any hood in the nation, or the world. With the exception of a few pedigreed elitists and ever-so-eager-to-please-white-lefties - Greg's words are empty.
To understand a culture truly - you have to be a part of it. Tate is as much a part of hip hop as is Dolores Tucker, Clarence Thomas, and Clavin Butts --- just like em gets no ghetto pass, neither do they. Self hatred is nothing new...but damn son use your degrees to do something more productive with your life. The role of self-hating critic is tired, played and unnecessary.
The reason why we can bounce our heads to 50, Mobb Deep, Jay, Nas, Kanye, Talib, Dre, Buck, Game, etc. w/no contradiction is b/c we have love for our culture/our music. While we all wish the lyrics were deeper - at the end of the day we love the voice (as Guru said), the beats, and the music. Lyrical content is only one aspect of the music, and the music is only one aspect of the culture.
What is devoid in the bullshit hip hop critiques is a recognition that motherfuckas are really running shit. Russel, Puffy, Steve Stoute, Irv (oops) Gotti, Jay, Kevin Liles, Dame Dash, Master P, Suge, Benzino, JD, are DECISION MAKERS. The we are powerless to whitey shit doesn't fly anymore. Decision making = power. Don't 4get at the end of the day - the MAN sold PE and KRS and X-CLAN to the masses b/c guess what ---- the mothafuckin music was hot. Shit is about green, always has been.
IF we want to glorify the artists of the past and call their names out - than lets be honest about their "moral fiber." I love George Clinton for his music but everyone knows he's a coke head. I love Marvin for smooth words but he was cracked out and had to be rested by his own pops. Miles beat his women and gladfully talked about himself as a true pimp before he died. All this to say enough with the romanticizing for some perfect day that never existed.
All of our collective human shit has always stunk... but folks that's not the point. Hip Hop is here to say - minstrel show- fuck you Greg.
Posted by: Tired at February 9, 2005 12:37 AM
Greg Tate - what are you celebrating? That you know how to recycle outdated rhetoric? Tate's problem - evident in every single piece he has written on hip hop - is that he is guilty of exactly the same angst he speaks of. Tate critiques hip hop in circles he knows will never have any impact on the culture itself. While aware of market forces that affect the culture, and use it - Tate uses hip hop for his own lyrical masturbation. He gets off on being known as a hip hop critic - while completely distancing himself from the culture. Tate is no different than the mc who has disconnected himself from the hood for capital gains. He is a poser, an observer, a cynic, but not a part of the culture itself. His interest in eminem and white folk - seem more like
obsession than critical thought. While any "real hip-hop head" looks at eminem as an irrelevant character that will come and go (i.e. 3rd Base, House of Pain, Everlast, etc.) -- Tate elevates him and white people in general to a level of importance that is not felt in any hood in the nation, let alone the world.
The tongue lashing he gives hip hop as a whole is also not felt in any hood in the nation, or the world. With the exception of a few pedigreed elitists and ever-so-eager-to-please-white-lefties - Greg's words are empty.
To understand a culture truly - you have to be a part of it. Tate is as much a part of hip hop as is Dolores Tucker, Clarence Thomas, and Clavin Butts --- just like em gets no ghetto pass, neither do they. Self hatred is nothing new...but damn son use your degrees to do something more productive with your life. The role of self-hating critic is tired, played and unnecessary.
The reason why we can bounce our heads to 50, Mobb Deep, Jay, Nas, Kanye, Talib, Dre, Buck, Game, etc. w/no contradiction is b/c we have love for our culture/our music. While we all wish the lyrics were deeper - at the end of the day we love the voice (as Guru said), the beats, and the music. Lyrical content is only one aspect of the music, and the music is only one aspect of the culture.
What is devoid in the bullshit hip hop critiques is a recognition that motherfuckas are really running shit. Russel, Puffy, Steve Stoute, Irv (oops) Gotti, Jay, Kevin Liles, Dame Dash, Master P, Suge, Benzino, JD, are DECISION MAKERS. The we are powerless to whitey shit doesn't fly anymore. Decision making = power. Don't 4get at the end of the day - the MAN sold PE and KRS and X-CLAN to the masses b/c guess what ---- the mothafuckin music was hot. Shit is about green, always has been.
IF we want to glorify the artists of the past and call their names out - than lets be honest about their "moral fiber." I love George Clinton for his music but everyone knows he's a coke head. I love Marvin for smooth words but he was cracked out and had to be rested by his own pops. Miles beat his women and gladfully talked about himself as a true pimp before he died. All this to say enough with the romanticizing for some perfect day that never existed.
All of our collective human shit has always stunk... but folks that's not the point. Hip Hop is here to say - minstrel show- fuck you Greg.
Posted by: Tired at February 9, 2005 12:41 AM
Yo,
Hip-hop is garbage and y'all know it. It isn't music and it never will be. Sorry but that is the straight dope.
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