Even better: "I would definitely compare where hip-hop is right now to the big-hair rock phase of the '80s, when the men were just very hypersexual and very destructive. And it's a completely different arena and different form, but it's that same thread of just-over-the-top behavior."

Ha! damn.

interesting how that comparison has come up often recently, along with the hopes that a hip-hop Nirvana will come along to render usher this era into history

Look at an old VHS tape of "Wild Style" ... Busy Bee raps about how he gets paid, how he's so awesome and how he gets all the hoes. In fact, he does this while spreading out cash on a cheap motel bed in front of some groupies.

That was 20 years ago. Fifteen years ago, it was Slick Rick's "Treat Her Like a Prostitute". Ten years ago it was Dr. Dre's "Bitches Ain't Shit". Five years ago, it was Eminem fantasizing about killing his wife.

It isn't an era.

You can't say all of rap music is misogynistic because of three songs split by five years. Back until around "The Chronic" era you had like a 1000:1 ratio of songs that were misogynistic to not. that ratio is about 1:100 now and on top of that almost everything that makes it on the radio seems to have to fit that criteria. In 2003, Kool Moe Dee was on MSNBC (or Fox News) debating that same thing and labled it a conspiracy.

I didn't say all rap music was sexist. I said that it's not a recent trend.

I have been listening to hip-hop for a long time now, and I can tell you that in "The Chronic" era, there was a *ton* of sexism, from The Pharcyde to Luke to Too $hort to Wreckx-N-Effect to Black Sheep to Sir Mixalot to Ice Cube to EPMD. (Are those enough examples now?)

Any notion that there's 100,000 times as much sexism right now (yes, I know that number is figurative) springs from a false nostalgia for some "golden age" of hip-hop.

I always love this conversation, b/c it always places hip-hop outside of the american cultural context as if it is some other form of americana culture. how do we discuss miosgyny in hip-hop w/out discussing misogyny in america. hip-hop is not existing in some vacuum. it is part and parcel of the culture that produces it.

can we discuss misogyny in american cinema? how about in american politics?

the list could go on, but i think you get my point.

It's hard to sort out the connection between music and society. My impression is that rap music seems to have a lot more degradation of women than rock music. I think there is no question that pathologies in the Black community contribute to this, but I think it is out of proportion with actual attitudes amongst black people. Also, there is the issue of how much the audience drives this.

I think a lot of rap artists use sexist behavior to puff themselves up, make themselves appear powerful and morally unconstrained. The reality is that most men yearn for meaningful relationships with women. But there is also a fantasy, among men, of being immune to a woman's allure.

I'm curious to see other people's views on whether rock has anywhere near as much degradation of women.

Great discussion a few quick points--1) I agree that there has always been misogyny, but I do think the misogyny has been ratched up more recently. Another way to look at this issue would be to look at the women artists of today vs. 15 years ago.

2) I think Lynne is right that misogyny is part of the larger US culture, but let us not us that as a way to make Hip Hop culture seem better. (I'm not saying you are doing this, but many folks do.)

3) One thing I have noticed about rock more recently is the sheer absence of women in videos. Women are almost nonexistent--and quite frankly I find that offensive too.

Excellent post.

I agree with Lynne. This is an Americana/cultural problem not a hip-hop problem.

Happy New Year, Jay Smooth.

To Joe Grossberg:

While you are right I believe that Hip Hop/Rap is reaching more of the youth than ever before. Marketers from all industry use Hip Hop as a tool.
Back in the day I set my alarm to tape the MasterMix after 11PM....later I taped the Awesome Two, Stretch & Bobito and the hometown fav Jay Smooth. Today six year olds and their parents are getting "jiggy" with it...together. YUK!

You are right but also wrong because the main point is that today the parents have little control because as like @ my childhood home I couldnt pump Busy Bee talking about Hoes, most of my peers could not either and today the youth who have restraints at home can get their fill outside of the home more easily.

"Another way to look at this issue would be to look at the women artists of today vs. 15 years ago."

Word. "You ain't gettin' paid/ You ain't knockin' boot/ YOU AIN"T TREATIN ME LIKE NO PROSTITUTE..."

Let people say what they will about Salt N' Pepa, but they were one of the few commercially successful hip hop artists in the '80s who spoke to and for strong Black women.

Much respect to Rachel. The fact is that Lil Kim and Foxy Brown are a far cry from Queen Latifah and MC Lyte. Not to mention all of these faceless "video chicks". What also burns me up is how certain rappers refuse to accept that they are role models. How is it that anyone in the world that a youth comes in contact with (direct or indirect) can have a potential effect on them except rappers? I find that mad immature not to mention cowardly.

What we must keep in mind here is the fact that not only are male rappers taking part in the degradation of women, female rappers and dancers have played a significant role and, in some cases, provided the fuel that male rap artists and their adherents have historically used as their justification for this behavior. A great leader in the African-American community once suggested that society can rise no higher than its woman. Subsequently, we should not be surprised at our current condition.

i know this might sound shallow, but misogony sells, and when i go to clubs i see girls getting down to these songs. matter of fact when i try to play dope records at a party(i dj) i.e. nas or little brother, i usually get "oh... i cant dance to this, or what is this shit?..." the fact is people would rather hear laffytaffy. thats why i gotta agree that it has more to do w/ than just music its part of the mainstream culture... cause women buy in to these attitudes as well as men

hip hop and rap are 2 different thing rap originated from hip hop. hip hop comes from the soul and mind. rap is just something that sounds good. showin nc luv

hai,
to the boses, a want to meat u how can i meat u?

In almost any industry sex sells no matter what. At the end of the day if women werent selling records hip hop artist wouldnt make videos with them in it.Whatever sells is going to be sold so if u dont like it dont buy it.

You guys are the 24238 best, thanks so much for the help.