although Tyra was irking me a bit with the slightly exaggerated code-switching.. trotting out this "girl you trippin!" voice that reads to me like a clumsy affectation.. (something Oprah does too, but she's more convincing with it)

the fact that you (and others) assume that Tyra and Oprah are fake w/their "code switching" is very irksome to me. I work in Corporate America and as a black woman, i often turn off my "ethic speak" when dealing in business matters. but every now and then, when i'm feeling particularly comfortable in a certain situation, a "word" or a "gurrrrlllll" slips out. Their television shows are a business. As all black people know, when dealing in business w/the dominant culture, it's often necessary to stifle our normal (or comfortable) way of speaking. I'm quite sure that when Tyra is just around her family and friends or Oprah is hanging w/Gayle, there's alot of "girl you trippin'" going on.

I didn't say that code switching in general is "fake".. I think what you describe above is generally understood as the definition of code switching (at least as it applies to black people), and we all do it, myself included.

But I don't think in Oprah or Tyra's case it's a matter of slipping into their natural voice because they feel comfortable.. whenever they make this particular switch, it seems to me quite deliberate and intended to achieve a particular effect.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing necessarily.. but I am saying Oprah does it well and makes it feel more natural, while Tyra seems fake and contrived when she does it.

And in both cases I'm interested in how their particular approaches to code-switching fit into their apparent shared concern with "middle-class respectability" and how they perceive the boundaries of acceptable Black expression.

IMHO, both the Stephen Merritt and Tyra Banks stories are based on pointless arguments. Both articles are question the ethics of a decision where "ethics" have no place: artistic taste. Merritt was taken to task because he happens to dislike Hip Hop (actually, I believe he called it "rap," and if you're old-school like me then you know there's a BIIIIIG difference), and Banks is being questioned on what appeals to her aesthetically. It's a slippery slope: maybe there IS some hidden personal animosity towards the culture for whatever reason (racism? self-hate?) but it's damn hard to prove that as cold hard fact. It also sets a dangerous and really stupid precedent: that folks have to set aesthetic preferences aside and instead take careful note of the artists themselves, lest they be accused of racism (and let's be real, how many of us own a polka album? ) and conversely, anyone who likes jazz, hip hop or whatever is therefore NOT racist. (And believe it or not, that's the argument they're trying to use right now to excuse that scumbag in the Howard Beach redux.)
Anyway, I could give a rat's ass what Tyra, Stephen or the rest of corporate Amerikkka likes or more importantly, says what WE should like. Barbie, Elvis and McD's will always be the "norm" to them and it's up to us to teach our kids, neighbors, co-workers, and anyone else we meet in life that there ARE beautiful (and usually vastly superior) alternatives to that norm.

I agree these are not exactly questions of ethics, but I don't think the questions are irrelevant either. Taste doesn't grow out of a vacuum, and I am intrigued by how our tastes are informed by what goes on in the other parts of our brain. I think there is insight to be gained by studying how that works.

There's a difference between setting aesthetic preferences aside and trying to figure out where those preferences come from. Though some folks like Cook and Hopper may get clumsy with it, these discussions can be more constructive than you give them credit for. I think Sasha and others are seeking a more thoughtful and nuanced discussion than the "listening to this makes you racist, and listening to that means you're not" strawman that folks like Cook reduce it to.

Hmmmm... I dunno. Taste is such a personal issue having to do with everything from physiological (why do you like salty foods more than sweet or blue over red) to the early psychological (some guys marry women who are just like their moms & others choose the exact opposite), but I'm really not sure how much it has to do with social conditioning (no matter how much you play their music I still think The Pussycat Dolls suck.) That's why I think the argument is ultimately pointless (I never said irrelevant, mind you)-- because unless you really know a person, even better maybe than they know themselves, you can't even begin to understand why they have certain taste in music, fashion, food, whatever.

I guess it makes for an interesting discussion for like maybe five minutes. But ultimately,I'm more concerned about how or why a police officer regards certain people as a "criminal element" or whether an employer regards us as "employable" or not more than who Tyra thinks the Next Top Model should be. :P

But aren't prejudice and racism are every bit as complex, and determined by just as wide an array of factors, as taste? Everything you just said about taste could just as easily be said about racism.. but I don't think that complexity makes the conversation pointless in either case. Just makes it more challenging, and means the more we talk about it the better.

I'm also not convinced my questions about Tyra can be separated out from your questions about cops and employers.. seems to be they are all part of the same conversation, and each one can provide insight into the other.

Well, it depends how you define each, right? Racism is a deep-rooted belief in the inherent superiority of one group of people over another. It needs to be taught, if you believe the old moniker "no child is born a racist." Prejudice is making a judgement call before you have all your facts, it could be as innocuous as "raw fish? Disgusting, I'd never eat sushi even if you paid me." Both prejudice and racism can be un-learned and corrected. At least, I really hope so because if it can't we're all in some deep sh!t.

Taste is just... taste. Something either moves or inspires you or it doesn't. I tried to like "Brokeback Mountain," but wound up hating it, I thought it was way too long and incredibly boring. But to go by the simplistic headline from Slate "Is Tyra Banks Racist?", I guess I'm just a irreconcilable homophobe.

Of course, this is just my take on it. Maybe taste CAN be taught, but then is that how you REALLY feel or you're just liking something because you THINK you should?

Oh there are definitely differences between taste/prejudice/racism.. I didn't say they are exactly the same, I said they are equally complex.. I think prejudice as it applies to race/gender etc is about a lot more than the dictionary definition of "not knowing all the facts"..

And I definitely don't believe taste is just taste.. I'm pretty sure you didn't dislike Brokeback because of a genetic tendency to be bored by gay cowboy movies. :) If you grew up in a different place with different family/friends/environment, and were exposed to different music/movies/tv/literature growing up, you might have a totally different reaction to Brokeback or the Pussycat Dolls..

I don't see anything in that Tyra Banks article that suggests you would be homophobic for disliking Brokeback.. the Tyra article isn't even about taste per se, that was more the focus of the Merritt stuff. And again, reducing either convo to "if you don't like *** you are racist" is basically making a strawman of discussions that are not at all so simplistic. The Merritt thing was never really about what he likes and doesn't like, so much as the weird stuff he says to defend and rationalize those dislikes.

I'm glad the discussion is out there. The dialog has sort of been reduced to the point where unless we're talking about very obvious behavior, it's off the map. It's time that we developed some sort of langauge or space for dialogue; I've been limited to, "I don't know, there's something fishy there." The dreaded "R" word has been made to be too big an allegation (I find myself backing away from it), but race is playing a factor. Just like it did in the 70s with the whole "Disco sucks" thing.

I don't have a strong opinion on Tyra, since I don't watch the show enough to judge, but was I the only one who cringed reading that Slate story when it described Danielle as "articulate". Saywha?

Yall got so deep with this that I couldn't tell if you were actually fans of Tyra's show. While I don't watch the talk show too often, I watch ANTM religiously and Tyra is black. Straight up and down. Even though she grew up in Inglewood with the same problems and struggles children from single partent households tend to deal with, her mom somehow sent her to private school. As a result she is a person that can likely slip in and out of both worlds effortlessly. Why it sounds fake to some ears is beyond me. Her "mixed" background is clear as day to me. I think Oprah is straight up undeniably black as well. She is just educated and been exposed to many things none of us can relate to. I think her situation is similar to Tyra's. Lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I think this has been a conversation worthy of deeper evaluation. . .alas, as many of you have said, it's inherently pointless 'cause you believe what you believe. this is my first time to the site, so i don't have frames of reference for Merritt or Strawman, but from this one article the point that caused my eyebrows to raise the highest was the disdain for southern accent vs. appreciation/admiration for the african accent. i don't think it'd be bad for tyra to take the opportunity to show that just because something is stereotypically not accepted, that it can't become the new standard by which future stars are judged.
other than that, i've seen about 15-30 minutes of that show since it started and i didn't notice any glaring pseudo-racist activity even in retrospect.
*shrug*

I am submitting this comment on behalf of all real BLACK WOMEN. First of all it is almost always one of our own people trying thier damndest to pull us down, this especially happens with African American women. I work in an environment where women are not welcomed,let a lone black women (excuse me for being black).

Comparing Tyra to Oprah is like comparing oil and water. Oprah sold out several years ago when committed herself to pleasing white America. You referenced UPN being geared towards blacks what's wrong with that; there are approximately 273 channels geared towards white audiences (have you made reference to that).

Tyra is in a league of her own she is real and proud of being black. I guess you the judging black America cant handle a SISTA being successfull.

Yeah. Oprah "sold out" b/c she doesn't showcase a buncha rappers on her show who make their money off of calling black women bitches and hoes. she "sold out" b/c she hires an outstanding amount of African Americans to work on her show. She "sold out" b/c she's all about educating and enlightening black americans. As a woman from the caribbean, I just have to say that you all are THE most confused peoples on this planet. Get it together! Stop hating on your own for rising above the ghetto mentality that holds so many of you guys back.

I echo the comments of "west indian" about oprah and tyra "selling out". But, I would also like to address the question of whether tyra's comments on ANTM were racist: the short answer, no.
1. Many people regardless of race who have strong regional accents ( southern, northeast-bostn, ny) have received coaching, speech and diction lessons if they want to pursue successful careers requiring mass appeal like acting, modeling, pagents, and others where a lot of public speaking is required.
2. What's wrong with Black people having a good command of the English language in grammar AND diction? That's not to say the regionial accents are incorrect, just not as marketable. Maybe this was the first time Danielle ever received that feedback, so that instead of only selling products (which is what modeling is fundamentally) in the southwestern part of the US, she'll be able to appeal to wider audiences in the US and world. Thus, making her a more valuable commodity. I think she should be thanking tyra for the advice.
3. The reality is that while British, African, and other non-US second language english accents are acceptable (i.e. Naomi cambell, heidi klum, giselle, elizabeth hurley), there is a negative connotation associated with the southern and Black non-standard english (that we use in comfortable not professional settings) as an indication of an upbringing in an a lower socioeconomic class or just plain ignorance. Since this is the game, why don't we as people commend those who follow the "each one teach one" concept, rather than question their loyalty to the race, or accuse them of racism????

If you guys think taste, racism and the like are a matter of personal preference you are fooling yourselves. Sociological & pshcological forces shape all of that. The media often becomes a huge part of how we percieve beauty.

Is it genetic that so many black folks like chicken and collard greens? Is it genetic that so many jewish people like gefelte fish & potato lox? No, its cultural, which really amounts to social condiditioning. Does me growing up in the 80's in Harlem have anything to do with me being a huge fan of Hip Hop and major detractor of this crap that passes for it today? Absolutely. Most people liek to think they are individuals, but we are shaped so greatly, and so often by social forces.

This reminds me of a time when a black man told me that he's racist, he only fucks with chicks who are light-skinned with long hair. I jokingly thought to myself, where have I heard this before? Only everywhere! It is not a coincidence that so many black men feel this way, it is a social phenomenon, with strong socioloigical implications, that go beyond someones personal preference.

K,

I agree with every point you made. However, I do not think that if one is able to effectively communicate (I.e. Correctly using the English language in grammar and enunciation) that one has been sociologically or psychologically influenced, nor culturally depleted. Instead, it simply shows that the person has taken the time to educate themselves on how to correctly speak the English language the same way an intelligent person might learn the appropriate Spanish dialect if living in Spain verses Mexico ( or french in france, german in germany, etc...)

Black people generally need to stop acting like proper English is our enemy rather than our friend. Btw, I grew up eating and loving fried chicken and collard greens; not because of psych/sociological conditoning- I simply ate what my g-mother liked and prepared...AND I spoke proper English, which didn't make me any less culturally in tune with intelligent Black people.

So, while I echo all of your comments on sociol & psychol influences that we are regularly subjected and that often undermine our cultural heritage, self-esteem, and self-love; it is very important that we not confuse the issues (tyra's coaching vs. Euro-dominated media and print ads). One issue sabotages us, while the other is self-sabotage.

This always makes me angry.What,exactly,is "too Black"? And it always happens when Black folks wanna get "professional". Tyra KNOWS better.

And if,in the work place, we STILL have to change the ways in which we speak,then we are no different from our post-Slavery ancestors who had to censor what they said and did in order to please white people.If we ,too, have to censor what we say then after hundreds of years we still havn't made much progress.