April 18, 2003

Why Jack White is Wrong

In the latest issue of Rolling Stone magazine, Jack White of the White Stripes explains his opinion of Hip-hop thusly:

"I find OutKast and Wu-Tang Clan interesting. But I consider music to be storytelling, melody and rhythm. A lot of hip-hop has broken music down. There are no instruments and no songwriting. So you're left with just storytelling and rhythm. And the storytelling can be so braggadocious, you're just left with rhythm. I don't find much emotion in that."

He's certainly entitled to his opinion, and there is no such thing as right or wrong (in any objective sense) when it comes to personal taste, so I'm not mad at him. But I will point out that Jack White is missing at least one basic element of music, one that is particularly important to Hip-Hop. Let me tell you a little story:

For 6 years I was a teacher/counselor for "emotionally disturbed" teens at a group home upstate. One day we went on a field trip and walked by a construction site, and the sound of the drilling rattled our bones. As we went by one of my favorite students, Kelly Miles, turned to me and said "That sound is dope! Somebody needs to sample that and make a beat with it."

I knew exactly what she meant, and what made that drilling sound so dope had nothing to do with rhythm, melody, or storytelling. It was the noise itself that had an irresistibly visceral quality to it. As Public Enemy so wisely observed, that's one of the most important qualities found in any good hip-hop - you have to bring the noise.

If I played you a Premier snare drum and the snare from a Celine Dion song, isolated and removed from its original drum pattern, you could easily tell me which was which, and would probably have a strong preference as to which one sounded hotter. Most anyone who listens to Hip-Hop could easily make that distinction, and its not because of rhythm, melody or storytelling. It's because noise matters.

This is not only true for hip-hop either. The tonal quality and timbre of the sounds is a crucial element in our experience of any music. For example D'Angelo's Voodoo album, and the other Soulquarian releases of that "neo-soul" boom, were such a stark contrast to the other R&B of that time period, but not primarily because of the melody or rhythm or storytelling. What made them stand out, more than anything, was that they just sounded so raw. The vintage analog instrumentation they worked with, and that gritty sound they achieved while recording it and mixing it down. It was quite simply a different type of noise than the polished, plastic synthesizer music that was dominating R&B up until then.

This is one of the biggest reasons Hip-Hop has had such a tremendous influence: we changed the face of popular music with our focus on refining the art of noise. We took that element of music that is so often forgotten, and brought it to the forefront.. reminded everyone that noise matters, and showed the world how to bring it.

Any attempt to judge Hip-Hop will always be off the mark, if it fails to recognize this fundamental aspect of the music. That's why I must beg to differ with Jack White. And he really ought to know better, since he clearly pays close attention to the power of noise in his own music, striving to bring a full, rich sound out of a band with only two instruments.

Posted by jsmooth995 at April 18, 2003 5:52 PM

Comments

Wow! I'm so glad that i'm able to be the first to speak on this. You are so right in your opinion because it is so hard to explain to people that aren't in the culture what hip hop is about. It is obvious that Mr. White Stripes has been more exposed to commercial hip hop to say something so narrow minded especially for somebody who is musically trained (for rock n'roll at least.) Your example with the construction is so real right now because believe me I've felt the same way about obscure sounds for awhile. (I'm a P.E fan as well)Hip hop was really solely based on out of the box thinking. Most of the forefathers of hip hop couldn't play instraments but new what sounds and breaks could "move the crowd" (Hence M.C) Every thing in the culture was moved on creativity from the music (sights and sounds birthed all four elements and off-shoots)I'ts trully a shame that there aren't enough writers and editors of these magazines who are willing to check these cats and goive them a crash course of the real. Thats why it's important to continue to be a beacon of light to the hip hop masses!!!!

P.S Everything I say is thought provokin', Ya Know it's East Oakland!!! Peace!!

Posted by: Young Curt at April 20, 2003 12:28 AM

I agree with Jay on this one. Mr. White should know that noise (sound) is one of the main components in many different genre of music. For instance, Steppenwolfs supposedly slashed their speaker cones to create distorted noise for their guitar, which is now known as distortion in R&R music. What about Nirvana and that whole grunge scene? I can't say that the Nirvana and/or the entire grunge scene was musically sophisticated but they did come out with their own brand of noise = sound = grunge. I don't think any of us can articulate why we like distorted guitar sound or that grunge sound, but many of us like them. Many R&R musician could identify artists by their sound = noise, just as Jay mentioned for Hip Hop heads to be able to recognize snare sound of Premo vs Dion. I have to say that sometimes there are sound (noise) out there that I feel strongly but can not explain in words as to why. I just like them. That's why there are some beats that I like but can not explain why. It must be the noise!

Posted by: DJ Musashi at April 21, 2003 3:11 PM

I suppose Mr. White never read Tricia Rose's book Black Noise. I am so over people saying that hip-hop is not really music. Hip-hop is very much like African music...and we can say Jamaican music by extension. Bass is important, as is repetition. It's also polyrhythmic by nature.

Posted by: lynne at April 22, 2003 2:23 AM

I am glad Jack White wrote that article and that there are so many critical views of hip hop because it urges those who take hip hop seriously and can express critical theroy to evaluate and offer analysis in a way that I can appreciate and understand.

If hip hop is truly an American art form that black people have created, then I think it's important that the creators and adopters be able to discuss it as such.

I am one who feels that hip hop, in general, is dying, artistically. Like you mentioned, Jay, that's my opinion; there is no wrong or right.

However, I would like to have more faith in hip hop. And although there a number of groups innovating the sound, or dropping politics or creating dance cuts that aren't mere re-treads of past hits - overwhelmingly, they are in the minority.

You, Lynne and a few others challenge me to rethink my views on hip hop and give me some hope that this artistic expression can be more than braggadocious misogyny and bling bling.

Thanks.

Posted by: j. brotherlove at April 24, 2003 9:59 AM

Oh Please!!! Black music has all but drowned itself in the samples of more talented (normally white) musicians and is currently choking up a gut-full of advertising ploys. Afro-American music has sold it's soul to deodorant commercials and Heineken. A black man selling his soul to master the guitar would be unheard of in our society - black artists cannot even play music (nor do they intend to)! And god forbid that they ruin their $300 celebrity endorsed sneakers walking down an unpaved road to the crossroads! Music originally, admittedly, did not progress and find it's truth and integrity until the birth of the Delta blues with the likes of Lead Belly and Robert Johnson. How many young black people know who these artists are, honestly? Guess who does appreciate the integrity that black music once had? JACK WHITE!!!! The White Stripes have covered both Robert Johnson and Blind Willie McTell. Now, how many young black people know who these musicians are? I'm sure they would assume that "Blind Lemon Jefferson" is the name of a gin and lemon drink. If you want to hear good black music, you have to listen to smart assed white boys like Jack White or Beck because, unless it has an endorsement that you can post across your chest declaring yourself a whore for (fill in the blank) corporation, black youth ain't buyin'...

Posted by: Jennifer at May 1, 2003 5:30 AM

Jennifer:

Your musical worldview and your perception of African-Americans are both spectacularly myopic. For some reason you are seething with hostility towards the 99.8% of Black people who did not record Blues music between 1928 and 1936. If you think Jack White shares this peculiar bias, I suspect you are mistaken.

I would encourage you to follow your own advice and listen more closely to Beck, who has always shown tremendous respect for contemporary Black music in general, and Hip-Hop in particular.

Posted by: Jay Smooth at May 1, 2003 12:45 PM

i think jack is right,, music needs more than "noise", yes grunge music makes lots of noise, but it is only noise added to the already existing sound of the music,, like to bring the song up to a climax then back down to a soft melody,,, nirvana used,,,,"noise",,, but it was noise added to the already existing music that gave more feeling of pain and anger to an already great piece of music,,the "noise" was created out of the feelings coming through kurt cobain,,,yeah he used pedals,, but he only used them to add emphasis to his already great music,,, any Nirvana song played accustically sounds just as great as electric with,,,"noise",,, unlike rap and hip hop which usually STEAL their "noise" from a rock band.

Posted by: kenfro at October 14, 2003 5:22 PM

some of you guys are missing hte point in jacks quote all of white strieps music is based off of music made in the early 1900s do some reaseach this stuff has been around for hundreds of years and jack is simply redoin this storys in his own manor and he is doing what he loves and whatever people wona make of it or belive go ahead its everyone opinion on music and you cant judge on what people like or dont like for this is why you can not say jack is wrong for his own opinions on his or others point of view on music itself

Posted by: James at December 29, 2003 3:48 AM

some of you guys are missing the point in jacks quote all of white stripes music is based off of music made in the early 1900s do some research this stuff has been around for hundreds of years and jack is simply re-doing thies storys in his own manor and he is doing what he loves and whatever people wona make of it or belive go ahead its everyone opinion on music and you cant judge on what people like or dont like for this is why you can not say jack is wrong for his own opinions on his or others point of view on music itself

Posted by: James at December 29, 2003 3:50 AM

Jack White isn't wrong at all really. In Hiphop, which is a heavily lyrical genre, sometimes far too lyrical for it's own good, when the storytelling (lyrics) are shit, you have nothing but emotionless rhythm 98% of the time. Because it's mainly, rhyme from rhymer, beat from producer. There is hardly ever any real emotion within the beat. It's just designed to make you move most of the time and almost all the time it's created, saved and sold to the highest bidder. In Rock music (all aspects), there is good stuff, there is shit and there is excellent. The lyrics AND the music do the talking and the storytelling in Rock music. That is what Jack White is saying. If the lyrics aren't especially amazing you can always make amazing music from the heart by playing instruments as opposed to sitting at a computer making a beat. Wu-Tang Clan and Outkast make good music along with it which is why he picks them out. You look at a standard MC and it's random lyrics on a famous producers beat. Jack White is exactly on point. More power to him.

-David

Posted by: David Masters at December 30, 2003 3:30 PM

Are these people for real?

At its essence, the Blues was about conveying personal experience -- often troubling or intimate experiences -- without resorting to religion or traditional themes. The Blues was the beginning of modern popular music.

Placing one's personal experience and views above "proper" musical conventions is the epitome of Blues music. Before the Blues, the emphasis was on the group experience and traditional themes and stories. Blues artists asserted themselves as individuals. Blues artists quite often echoed the same "Me Against the World" attitude that people today would associate with 2Pac or Biggie Smalls.

Sure, the Blues has its music conventions -- scales and rhythms -- but those are merely manifestations of something deeper. The Blues empowered individuals to convey elusive personal experiences in ways rarely seen outside of so-called "primitive" cultures.

Quite simply, ALL modern music that places the individual above the group is a direct descendant of the Blues. This includes jazz, rock, doo wop, funk, rap, etc.

If you feel like you've walked a mile in someone else's boots... that's the Blues. As Willie Dixon said, "I am the Blues". 60 years later, KRS-One echoed this spirit when he said "I AM hip hop".

Don't just read your history... KNOW your history.

Posted by: eric at December 30, 2003 5:06 PM

JACK WHITE IS NEVER WRONG GRRRRRRRR

Posted by: Amanda at January 3, 2004 11:21 PM

I never could understand the point of hip-hop, rap, or even r&b. Jack is right when he say that it's all just noise. There's no point to that "other kind" of music. I'll stick to what I like best and it's Jack. In fact, I can't even understand why a person would see him as wrong. Maybe other people are just deaf toned to all the NOISE they're listening to.

Posted by: Chevy at January 4, 2004 3:11 PM

Maybe the reason that I think Jack White is right, is perhaps because I am biased. I am A huge White Stripes/ Jack White fan, and I would agree with him on anything. I believe hip-hop nowadays is somewhat juvenile, and basically has no "real" message, except for those of drugs, and violence. But the bottom line is, who am I to judge? I don't believe it is up to me or anyone else for that matter to crticize, Mr. White on the subject.

Posted by: Gina at January 4, 2004 9:05 PM

now, i could counter by saying that rock is just a bunch of angry white men. but that would make me sound like a total ignoramus. and therefore i won't.

Posted by: eric at January 4, 2004 9:57 PM

This is one hell of a thread going here. A few things to point out:

1) Don't agree with the artist just because you like him. That's plain ludicrous.

2) Mainstream Hip-Hop (in general I can't stand it) is made for one thing: dancing. It isn't meant to be creative or insightful. You get your groove on to hip hop. It's like Chris Rock said "White people, when you dance to hip hop, are you listening to the words or the beat? Cuz you dance like you're listening to the words!"

3) The White Stripes are great, but even they fall into standard formulas (Dead Leaves has almost the same chords structure as There's No Home For You Here, Death Letter and Ball and Biscuit are pretty similar). I think Jack's lyrics are very enticing and the fullness of the sound that they get out of a two person band is unreal.

4) There is good Hip Hop out there, and rapping is certainly a talent (try doing it, it ain't easy!). Check out A Tribe Called Quest or Eminem, both certainly have very well defined and unique styles.

5) I'd be quick to say that most modern rock sucks just as bad as pop-hip-hop. All these kids do is come out with one song with power chords and speed riffs with lyrics about how they love some girl or some BS and they've got an MTV music video but the music is just as repetetive and formulaic. This isn't all, some bands actually strive to write music that is intricate, meaningful and soulful (Widespread Panic is probably the best band out there right now).

Posted by: Dimer at January 15, 2004 12:15 AM

Good music is hard to find... for most people ;)

Posted by: eric at January 15, 2004 12:34 AM

The superior man loves his soul, the inferior man loves his property.

Posted by: Brittingham Smith at January 20, 2004 7:07 AM

i agree with jack, i respect hip hop is a style and i even like some of it, but it still lacks what music is all about which is expressing yourself with an instrument and your voice. if you have no control over the feel of the intrument playing, its like jack said: just noise. it all comes down to you can't spell crap without rap.

Posted by: Dash at February 3, 2004 1:11 AM

You all suck and are missing the point yes all of you including you Eric yes you. Music rocks, if you don't like it leave it alone, there's no point criticising stuff you don't like, stick to loving what you love. Quote me on that.

Posted by: jehovah at February 3, 2004 11:23 AM

Why should it be OK for you to criticze me, but not OK for me to criticize other people?

Posted by: eric at February 3, 2004 4:21 PM

As a music fan in general, I would have to say Jack White is right. But I also am a hugh fan of hip-hop dubbed "backpack rap". Maninstream hiphop is just about dead. Certain groups such as Outkast and the Roots still blow my mind. But overall, I'm not convinced (with an exception of a few artists) that anyone goes into the studio and tries making a classic album. In other words, ALL MUSIC IS DYING. Rock music just about might watch their backs too.

Posted by: AlphaRed3k at February 8, 2004 6:45 AM

fuck dem white stripes pricks, theyre just fuckin ignorant. his group only has two intruments in it theyre tracks are some boring bullshit. if i saw jack white id spit on him for makin such an ignorant remark

Posted by: budgie at February 12, 2004 9:43 AM

not much to say, except for the fact that if, as someone here says, music = expression thru instrument and voice, then hip hop is easily music. the fact that someone is playing a "live" guitar and drums is irrelevant; the tone of the guitar etc is so dependent upon electric / onic maniplation as to make one think--what is live? when it comes to most hip hop production, and especially all progressive hip hop production (timba, kanye, neptunes, def jux crew etc) the manipulation of sound is number one. sounds / samples are tweaked by individuals, so even if you hear "bleep and bloops", you are hearing things that have been created by human hands enacting the contents of a human head. and if you think that electronic sounds can't have any emotion, then fuck you. just fuck you. electronic sound can be deployed in many ways, and not just in imitation of traditionally "emotional" forms such as string quartets. i don't even know what i'm saying anymore.

jack white isn't talking out of his ass. his comment perfectly elucidates his position. it's just that his position is one that is wilfully closed to a large aspect of music. god forbid i even get into cage or young--white might run at me with his shiny red porsche.

Posted by: oblivion ha ha at February 12, 2004 4:47 PM

Remember that Jack isn't criticizing Hip Hop, he's criticizing what people have (or haven't) done to progress the genre. Without equal and constant injections of creativity, intelligence, emotion and musicianship, ANY genre is destined toward stagnancy. How many times can you hear someone brag about themselves over a 4 beat piano diddy before it becomes agonizingly redundant and tiresome? Lyricism has always been at the forefront of Hip Hop, but when unprofound lyrics are supported with extremely basic musical accompaniment, there is little substance left to wrap your mind around. Unfortunately this impotent formula has still produced success for artists and has kept hip hop's potential firmly chained to the results billboard's dance music charts.

Posted by: Skoten at February 12, 2004 9:30 PM

"fuck dem white stripes pricks, theyre just fuckin ignorant. his group only has two intruments in it theyre tracks are some boring bullshit. if i saw jack white id spit on him for makin such an ignorant remark"

You sound pretty ignorant, have you even heard a white stripes album?? Or any rock album?

Posted by: H at February 13, 2004 3:55 AM

Interesting comments, to be sure. I think Jack White is entitled to his opinion. But as someone who grew up not listening to hip-hop, but classical music and later rock and has come to embrace it (hip-hop) over the past five years or so, I think he's well off the mark.

Posted by: Dark Cloud at February 16, 2004 8:28 PM

Yes Budgie sounds like the kind of guy who listens to mainstream hip hop. Dude, could u say one sentence without swearing. No of course u can't you've been brainwashed. I'm mainly a rock fan, but i do like some hip hops if the words are right. There are two types of music - regardless of what genre it is. Music to listen to, and music to dance (mosh, groove etc) to. The White Stripes have brilliant listening music...the guitar playing is amazing. Jack White strikes me as an incredibly profound person and he's commenting on the way hip-hop is now. It's the 'bling' culture - talent optional. Eminem didn't sell loads of records coz he's white but coz he's more talented than many of those 'bling' culture bilge. There's rubbish in rap and there's rubbish in rock - just look at KoRn for example!!
Jack's entitled to his own opinions of course, but i feel that anyone qualified to take part in this discussion has to be both a rock and a hip-hop fan.
Besides, Jack's gone back to roots with Blues, which was the father of both hip-hop and rock. so pay respect.
Muse rule.

Posted by: Charlie at March 11, 2004 1:37 PM

Posted by: Charlie at March 11, 2004 1:38 PM

Jack White is the purveyor of mediocre, funpopular version of rock and roll....in its new manifestation as white music

Posted by: Mel-if at March 22, 2004 9:42 PM

How many times do we have to hear the ignorant, uneducated pomposity of 'The Rock Fan' telling us that two guitars, a drum kit and a singer equal Real Music? (Or in J.Whites case, one guitar and a drumkit and a misguided opinion that old/establised is necessarily better?)

All this is is a watered down general convention that has passed into the mass conscious. (by the sounds of most of these reference points, through dumbed down shite like MTV)

How many times have these tired conventions (in all genres, sub genres...) already been tossed on the bonfire along with the theory that the world is flat?
Except the difference music is malleable and constantly mutates into new shapes. You just have to be listening in the right places. Kraftwerk may chuck out the guitars altogether in the 70's and sing about motorways. (The Slits took a punk template and welded it onto world music... Pil smash together noise, dub, disco, punk, ...and on and on....) This was all nearly 30 years ago-

Hiphop then taught us that you didn't even need 'instruments', you make music from whats at hand, : noise, anything, other peoples records even:::
you soak it in from your environment: That's Real Music. If Flash had saved up for a guitar down in the impoverished Bronx of the late 70's/early 80's and started learning Robert Johnson songs- fair play would have been accorded- but instead: He reflected and communicated HIS experience HIS way, not somebody elses. And it moved on again in different places.

Some of the people on this thread should read up and realise that if you learn and respect old music, it will tell you that definitions will keep being broken. The only place there is even still just Rock and Hiphop is in the mainstream media. (particularly within the limited scope of the American mainstream media)

Not to sound pompous, but here are some recent recommendations for anyone whose listening:::::

Dizzee Rascal
Jan Jelinek
Lali Puna
Deadbeat
Shadow Huntaz
DJ Dangermouse (grey album)
Fiery Furnaces
Split Shift
Infinite Livez

Posted by: Monkeyman at April 18, 2004 8:04 PM

Jack White is probably disapointed because the White Stripes lack crossover appeal, the same Cross Over appeal that Hip Hop has. The fact of the matter is that music like what the White Stripes create is what has ruined Rock Music since the grunge invasion of 91-92.

People generally want to have a good time, they want to dance, they want escape from their dull and dismal lives. People are getting mroe and more sick and tired of listening to some rock band tell a story of their crappy lives, how dismal society is, how angry they think they can be etc... Hip hop is the opposite, it encourages having a good time, FANTASY such as having things you don't have or sex etc... This is why Hip-Hop is outselling Rock Music. It took a while, the Gangsta Rap genre had to end, but hip hop artists are smart, 100 times smarter than rock artists.

Check this out. The most popular form of music in the 80's was perhaps the Hairband stuff. Maybe the synth pop, but the hairbands stuff was top selling and the media darling of the mid to late 80's. lyrically, the stuff wasn't great it was all about having a good time and then you had the occasional ballad. The look was over the top, but they possesed an attitude that made you believe (at the time) and you felt that they were "stars". you could pick out who was in a band back then and who wasn't when you alked down the street. The music made you feel good and it was stuff that entertained you as well. Grunge came in and had a more serious approach. The lyrics were more deeper, the music was more simplistic and darker, sometimes moddier and depressing. Hip hop in the early 90's was bright and colorful, flourecent and dance clubbish then it turned over to gangsta rap. Rock was still on top, then 1999 hit and rock music starts meshing with hip hop styles and you have rap/rock. the rap/rock stuff was for the msot part performed by angry white guys who were using the same 90's mentality but rapping horribly over top of it. Next you have hip hop, realizing that "fun" sells, starts putting out singles and albums and videos that are just fun. nothing too deep, nothing artistically challenging, but stuff that sells and soon enough you have a turn around and Hip Hop is outselling Rock Music.

Who really cares if Hip Hop uses samples or programmed sounds. Jack White is a talentless guitar player who can't play more than 4 chords per song, can't solo, doesn't have a wide vocal range, the music he writes is unique in the sense it's drums, vocals and guitar, but in reality it's just early 90's grunge music without a bass player. You throw a bass player on any of the sogs and they become "ordinary" just like they really are. Not saying that Hip Hop is original or great, because it's not. Eminem in my mind is about as over hyped as Kurt Cobain, the only difference is, Eminem is Dr.Dre's puppet and Dr.Dre is the puppeteer. Eminem's music is basically crap techno beats with 50% interesting lyrics and 50% nonsense gibberish.

The bottom line is, The White Stripes have no cross ovber appeal, you won't be seeing a bunch of white and black women going to a White Stripes show ever. (Women are the life blood of music, never forget that, if yo don't appeal to them your career won't be as long lasting. Your popularity won't ever rise either). Hip Hop, not create, lyrically it's not really any good, but it has crossover appeal and suburban white kids enjoy listening to any hip hop artists more than rock bands anymore. African American kids don't listen to anything that isn't Hip Hop or r&b anyways.

In the end, Jack White is just bitter because some new crappy hip hop artist like 50 cent can come out gain more national exposure and sell more records and make more money in a few months than he can and it's all because 50 cent has cross over appeal and The White Stripes do not.

This is why Rock Music is slowly dying.

Posted by: Mr.Dale at April 22, 2004 6:51 PM

This argument is ridiculous, to even suggest that the crap passed off as music by Hip-Hop "artists" these days is music is ludicrous, that's right, "L-U-D-I-C-R-O-U-S" as opposed to a guy who chooses his name by spelling a word wrongly. If real music and popularity keeps heading towards doomsday in the way that it is, then jack should watch out in the next 20 years or so for someone calling themselves T wite strypez or some other such "I'm black, I'll spell things however I want" bollocks
Martyn Davenport III

At the end of the day Jack is making his opinion known, which the black culture doesn't like to see unless it portrays themselves in some sort of good light, it automatically becomes racism.

rock music is only "slowly dying" because of the millionaire conglomerate who has the cash to make things sounds however he likes and develops music solely to sell records, like all black genres, (R&B, Hip-Hop, Dancehall, Reggae etc) making stuff people feel they have to buy so they seem 'cool' to their friends (homies, compatriots, wherever the fuck you're from), as opposed to making genuine music that will sell records if it strikes a chord with the people who are exposed to it.

Posted by: Jack The Ripper at May 18, 2004 8:25 PM

Interesting conversation here. I agree that some (not all) of the people who posted missed the point of Jack White's quote or just misread what it was conveying. He didn't say Hip Hop wasn't music. He just said "a lot of Hip Hop" has broken music down. "A lot of Hip Hop" should not be mistakenly perceived as a criticism of the genre itself in its entirety, because the same point can be made about "a lot" of metal music. What makes people so defensive, reactionary and protective of hip hop is the very thing Jack White identifies as a missing element in "a lot " of hip hop . .emotion. Love is an emotion and the hip hop that people love is the type that invokes their feelings in the first place. for example: An all time popular hip hop song filled to the brim with emotion: "They Reminisce Over You (T.R.O.Y.) by Pete Rock and C.L. Smooth. When this track comes on at a house party, in a club, a car, people close their eyes and start making declarations about what it means to them like "Yoooo, this song right here???" The sentiment conveyed cannot be ignored. Tupac's "Dear Mama" has the same effect. "All that I got is you" by Ghostface. Right? exactly! I personally don't get this feeling from songs like "Typsy" or "Game Over" or "Hotel" by the current crop of "rappers". What Jack White is saying essentially is that what has become popular in hip hop is the lowest common denominator. Now to you people who do not play instruments and just appreciate music, you will come up with all kinds of rationalizations to defend what you "thought" he was saying. Jack White is a musician so he has a different ear than the average listener. When you learn music, scales, intervals, keys, chords, etc. etc. you can see the vast and infinite sea of possible combinations of these that one can build a song with. Not having access to a formal music education, the pioneers of hip hop understood these aspects intuitively enough to do things like "Planet Rock" or "The Message". It's only until a so called "artist" gets told by a record label executive "we want you to do a Puffy-like song cause that's what's making the most MONEY in the market right now" then the creativity flies out the window-hence Jack White appears in Rolling Stong making essentially the same valid point about Hip Hop as O.C. made (10 or 11 years ago?)in "Times Up" or what KRS-One said in "My Philosphy" (16 years ago) or what Jay-Z honestly admits to as dumbing down the art just to sell to the masses. It's a fair criticism that has already come from within hip hop. It (commercialization aka wack hip hop with no emotion) has made Andre 3000 want to sing more the rhyme these days, Jay-Z retire, driven Lauryn Hill underground, and left A Tribe Called Quest in limbo. But you all knew all of this already. Some of you (not all of you) just got reactionary because a white guy said it.

Posted by: zinkatron at May 19, 2004 12:02 PM

Just found this site...nice job Jay...ill. I read those comment's Jack White made and I remember feeling disappointed and suprised. I've always liked the White Stripes. While they're not the most technically proficient musicians--something regarded negatively by 'Mr. Dale' on this thread---their songs always remained passionate, visceral...exploding with energy. Ironically, many of the same qualities that make hip-hop so compelling, Jack White was now dissing.

And for those who defended him earlier in this thread claiming that he was misqoted or taken out of context or some shit are flat out wrong. The essence of what Jack White said can be summed up by one quote from the article that started this thread: "There are no instruments and no songwriting. So all you are left with is storytelling and rhythm." The ignorance of this line suprised me very much. Especially coming from someone I admired and considered intelligent. Let's break it down. No instruments/no songwriting...hmmm. I've been a musician since I was a boy. I play guitar, bass, drums, piano, sample/make beats. The end justifies the means. It doesn't matter what you use to make the sound, as long as the end result is dope. Basically. Most good musicians/producers would agree with this sentiment. While growing up I never understood it when many of my long hair 'rocknroll' friends would diss hip-hop because it was 'fake', and 'electronically made'....while at the same time they were pumping their fist in the air to the latest 'electronically made' Van Halen keyboard riff.

For Jack White to have the sheer audacity to claim that hip-hop contains no songwriting or storytelling is unbelievable. My only conclusion is that he simply hasn't listened to much of it. I mean, MY GOD! The lryical complexity of Doom. The profoundity of Nas. The storytelling of Big. Has Jack White not heard Biggie Smalls?!?! He has to have. He's exactly my age (28) and even if you didn't like BIG, there was no eascaping hearing it all over MTV and radio in the mid 90's. So therefore I consider his ignorance to be disrespectful.

Also ironic is the fact that the qualities Jack considers poor in hip-hop, "so you're just left with nothing but storytelling and the beat", are also the hallmark qualities in the old blues that he so loudly claims to love. Funny. Drop on an old Son House or Charlie Patton record and that's what you're gonna hear--a rhythm getting banged out on the guitar and some singing (err..Jack...read that as "storytelling") over it. Jack White claims to love Charlie Patton; even cover's his song 'Death Letter Blues' at most White Stripes concerts. How he could dis the very HALLMARKS of the old records he claims to love completely mystifies me.

I love old blues music. Those cats didn't care what 'intstruments' they used to make music on. They used what they had access to. Some guys played guitar, some harmonica, some piano, some drums. BB King played his first music on a legnth of wire nailed to the wall. How Jack White cannot see the parallels between this and some guy making beats on a sp1200 renders me clueless.

Rant over. Peace.
"Music is just styles" -Miles Davis

Jesse

Posted by: Jesse at May 26, 2004 5:09 PM

This is the resurrected zombie of the old hip-hop-is-not-music argument. Even before I liked hip-hop, I always thought there was something myopic about this stance. It is always the same in spirit, Mr. White's case being no exception.

The argument is always that there are certain elements that something must have to be complete music, and hip-hop doesn't have all of them. I have two responses to this argument in its general case. The first is that it's probably just wrong. Hip-hop, backed by good beats, can have plenty of melody and harmony and all those other good things. I have to admit that not ALL hip-hop songs have these things, but they are not disallowed. Not only that, but in my opinion some of the best hip-hop songs have tons of melody.

The underlying error committed here is to assume that hip-hop is the same as rapping. Rapping is to hip-hop what vocals (or perhaps more fittingly, guitar) are to rock. It is one element among several possible elements, including turntables, samplers, live instrumentation and singing. Hip-hop has a tendency to put rapping front and center, but then you have your DJ Shadows etc.

Not only that, but jsmooth995 makes an excellent point. Hip-hop innovates with noise and sonic textures. Of course, this is by no means unique. Electronic music a few years back was incredibly creative in creating new kinds of noises. It is worth mentioning the the Stripes are not deaf to noise; they can definitely bring it with their old-timey instruments. But I would agree that White is overlooking this dimension of music in this argument.

My second response to the hip-hop-is-not-music argument goes something like this: so? What is so important about the definition itself? The real question is: do you want to listen to it? I find that I do. I could make a strong argument that an open-minded person could probably find some kind of hip-hop music that they appreciate, if they were willing to try different things out. It's not for everyone.

I really enjoy the White Stripes, so I don't want ot dismiss Jack White out of hand. It just gets tiresome having to defend hip-hop from this old chesnut. They don't make it any easier with the crap they put on MTV. But I find myself disagreeing with a lot of Jack White's general pronouncments on music. He is a traditionalist in a way that's going to irritate a hip-hop and electronic fan such as myself. It's always annoying when someone assumes that just because they don't like something, it can't possibly have something to offer. Maybe you just don't get it? It's not the worst thing in the world. Just imagine, even rockstars may have something to learn.

Posted by: bunny rabbit at June 5, 2004 3:38 AM

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Posted by: Commodity Investing at September 9, 2004 3:38 PM

I have to agree with zinkatron in some parts here. I dont know exactly what Jack White was trying to say, but I doubt he was writing off all hip hop, just the commercial sludge that gives it a bad name, musically.

Posted by: alex at September 19, 2004 7:51 AM

Bass noises gets disagreable after a while, its always the same thing. Except for a melodic song and such, you can have lots of different ones. I understand that noise is fun to party to, but if you've partying for 50 years, you'd hate to party again after that. But a melodic and storytelling song can stay in lots of people's minds for more than 50 years without them getting tired of it.

Jack White was right with his respond.
thanks Stephan

Posted by: stephan at September 30, 2004 11:33 PM