Hip-Hop and Jazz

I don't agree or disagree with you but let me say this- comparing lyrics to playing instruments is like comparing apples to oranges.

Is thier similarity/differences in the way the music is produced or the way the lyrics are recorded? That's a better debate than this one.

Every time I encounter a hip hop/jazz discussion, it always reminds me of an article in the 1988 Hip Hop Issue of Spin Magazine. After witnessing Run-DMC, LL and Whodini intermingle in a non-performance atmosphere, Max Roach commented that he hadn't seen that kind of camaraderie since his early days in the jazz community. He made some other hip hop/jazz comparisons, but I lost that issue long ago, and I don't remember them (DAMN). Certainly before rivalries got out of hand, hip hop artists seemed to be down with one another that reminded one of jazz circles of the past. It always enhanced my listening experience to hear KRS-1's recite his litany of colleagues ("Kool Moe Dee is down with us/Eric B & Rakim they're down with us/Stetsasonic they're down with us/Dana Dane he's down with us").

On the subject of Jay-Z's alleged recording methods, I understand that that's how Kool Keith and Ced-Gee recorded Critical Beatdown... It might be more common than we think.

Jazz is largely instrumental music and rap is primarily vocal. If you want to look for similarities between hip hop and another genre, try reggae instead.

I have written about the connections between rap and both reggae and the blues at my website. Some old, some new.

http://www.stinkzone.com/cgi-bin/archives/000077.html
http://www.stinkzone.com/cgi-bin/archives/000062.html
http://www.stinkzone.com/features/hiphop_jamaica.html
http://www.stinkzone.com/features/hiphop_names_vs_fbi.html

Jay...

You captured the differences very nicely. That said, imporvising lyrics in popular music did not begin until the late 1960s in Jamaica. Playing up and down a scale is very different than figuring out what rhymes with Nantucket. ;)

In the words of Madison, comparing Supernatural to Charlie Parker is like comparing apples and organges. They both taste great... but you can't substitute one for the other.

Jazz has been important to hip hop as a source of samples. To me hip hop is essentially records being spun and samples being looped. That's a very purist definition - lots of hip hop isn't made that way - but that's what I like best. Rap is rap no matter what music's behind it; and if you've got instruments, you've got a band. Rap isn't much like jazz. Hip hope likes jazz, but it doesn't seem to have that much in common with it either.

Mostly it seems jazz has been important to hip hop because it has instrument solos, so it's sample-friendly. Lot's of music doesn't. Of course, if you fuse jazz and hip hop like EasyMoBee or Guru, then hip hop and jazz seem to be practically the same thing.

I think people confuse the culture of hip hop and jazz with the music of hip hop and jazz.

The cultures hold many similarities (particularly the "why" of black people getting involved and inspired by). The musics, however, are wholly different. You can create hip hop without ever picking up a musical instrument, understanding how musical instruments or understanding much about music as an art.

The same cannot be said for jazz.

yeah...what Jason said about the culture similarities I agree with

Rap is often recognized as being the primary, and generally, the only form of music in hip hop. Turntablism is however, another example of music derived from hip hop culture. It isn't uncommon for dj's to improvise for fun, sometimes with other dj's and sometimes for the sole purpose of inspiring their routines. Though the music isn't always recorded in it's unrehearsed stages and sold that way, it is a testament to the creativity still present in some of the less lucrative areas of the culture.

Jason... i think i understand your definition of hip hop, but i'm not sure i understand your definition of "culture". could you expand?

Hip Hop and Jazz

The sociological, historical, political, cultural and of course musical similarities between these two seminal genres of music, are more numerous than one might think. These forms have, arguably, shaped mass culture more than any other musical genre, and the fact that both were pioneered by black people is only the very beginning of a long list of similarities running between the two.

I am currently in the process of writing a thesis on these two musical forms and their similarities and connections

Please excuse the note form of my original observations, feel free to tell me that I am wrong, and why - or agree - and help me! - this is a very interesting subject, and might be the subject of a BBC documentary soon - so get your views across!!!!!

Similarities -

They both retain similar afrocentric characteristics; polyphony, rhythm, repetition and call and response.

Both utilised equipment within their often-slight budgets to produce the sounds they sought after, from Jazz musicians use of cheap ex-civil war marching band instruments to the use of the Roland TR808 and TB303 by Hip-Hop producers, which were often discarded by other musicians for being too ‘electronic’ in sound.

There is a clear link between the improvisation elements, scratching and emceeing are often ‘free-styled’, and in Jazz the majority of solos are improvised, in fact, the notion of improvisation was pioneered by early Jazz musicians.

Dancing plays a major part – the lindy hop share many extreme moves as breaking.

The way the musics were performed live have uncommonly similar characteristics, although comparing a full swing band performance with a DJ set in a visual sense might not be appropriate, hidden importance and meanings can be cited beneath the brass section and the vinyl.

Battling and competition were, and still are central components of the genres, with ‘cutting contests’ pushing ‘Stride’ piano players to their limits in the 20’s. In Hip-Hop ‘emcee battles’ and scratching competitions still rage on a local and even international level.

Because of precarious economic conditions, African Americans are often forced to be complicit in their own demonization by producing commercially viable caricatures of them-selves. Eg – rap tends to confirm the stereotype of the violent drug taking black man. Gangsta rap - minstrelsy

Internal conflict like the BeBop/Swing divide in the 50’s?? and the East-Coast/West-Coast clashes in the mid 90’s play major parts in lives of musicians and artists involved in both genres.

Individual struggle for status within the music ‘scene’ and the community is seen to be a vital part of both genres. This constant exertion and struggle can be cited as one of the foremost reasons for the advancement of the subcultures, musically and socially.

Notion of re-working/remixing music standards/classics, both genres rely quite heavily on re-workings by recent artists.

Both musics Moved from east coast to west coast

Jazz was essentially modern and hip hop post modern, they were both at the forefront of new eras in philosophy and sociology.

Both forms have over time been recuperated into hegemonic culture and arguably taken shape as the foremost genre and even ‘lifestyle’ in most western societies. Hip-Hop is clearly now the foremost musical movement in the west, influencing fashion, dictating the direction of popular chart music and
Imprinting its ever-changing stamp on all forms of media.

Jazz and Hip-Hop can be seen to be born out of poverty, racial prejudice and societal circumstance and though decade’s apart, social conditions and attitudes to black people had, in many ways, changed only on the surface. Social, economic and political conditions in areas like New Orleans in the 1920’s and New York in the 1980’s played major roles in the formation of the musical forms. Many parallels can be cited between these ages, and it is in these unique societies that our journey begins.

Here is an example of Gangsta rap pre 1900s!!!!!

www.jahsonic.com

Blond haired, blue eyed May Irwin became a well known ‘coon shouter’ after the premier of The Widow Jones in 1895 in which she sang “ The Bully Song” . The song told of a “razor-toting nigger”.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/michaelmoor/a_trip_to_coon_town.htm

There was dat new bully standin on the ground.

I’ve been lookin for nigger and I’ve got you found.

Razors ‘gun a flyin’ niggers gun to squawk

I lit upon that bully like a sparrow hawk….

…When I got through with the bully, a doctor and a nurse.

Wa’nt no good to dat nigger, so they put him in a hearse.

"I am the Blues." -- Willie Dixon

"I am hip hop." -- KRS-One

"I am jazz." -- NOBODY EVER SAID THAT!!!!

Get your story straight or I will put a hex on your BBC special and make it extra WACK!!!

Eric, your approach seems rather childish to me, I was kinda hoping that maybe you knew something about hip hop or jazz, feel free to comment on anything i wrote, but I cant quite remember writing that anyone ever said 'i am jazz' - maybe they did?

Sorry to bring an academic approach to the room, if thats not what you like then we can talk on your level.

As for your hex? - mate, go for it, where I come from 'wack' means good!

Later - simon

eric, are you suggesting that the parallels that exist between hiphop and the blues are more distinct than those between hiphop and jazz? I don't really understand your comment.

Simon, I appreciate your views, but I think that your analogy for the origins of the two genres started in the wrong decade as far as hiphop is concerned. The music was birthed in the late 70's without the use of drum machines, but rather with dj sound systems as the primary instrument for routines and performances. It wasn't until much later, in the early eighties, that the drum machines you mentioned were employed more frequently. Between the two stages, live muscians were often utilized for studio recordings. The music at this time had very little in common with jazz or the blues. Consider also, that the similarities between hiphop and jazz or the blues are only applicable at certain points in any of the three genres' timelines. Overall though, I think you have a valid point in your comments. But perhaps, you may want to do a bit more research on hiphops beginnings to give your arguments greater credence...

Thanks Mic,

I agree, as I said, at the moment my arguments are in sort of note form, my point there is that both genres have used instruments at their disposal in often very different ways. The way that jazz trumpeters mimicked the human voice by playing in a new and innovative style, the way Herc played just the breaks sections, or how Flash used the turntable to improvise with scratching. I was kinda refering to instrumental and technological innovation - it is not my strongest point I agree, but I think it is worthy of a mention.

Your last point is very valid, I am in the process of looking at the dissimilarities - and as you may imagine there are many, eg many similarities may be drawn between any genres of music, hip hop has roots in other musical forms, eg - reggae. etc

Thanks for your comments, if you have any other thoughts or questions, please help -

ps are you from the States?

Simon, I just wasn't sure if that was the extent of your argument, seeing as you made no mention of the pioneering age of hip hop. I'm glad that you've acknowledged the similarities that exist between rap and reggae as well; There is a huge link between the two genres. I'm sure that there is very little I could add to your research info at this point. I know that you've only cited a few of your views on the topic in the above posts. So keep up with it.

I'm not from the States but I've been into the culture since 1984, not as long as a lot of ppl that post here, but I dig back... Anyhow, feel free to drop me a ? or two, and I'll def. tell you what I know.

I understand the meaning between both of the topics(hip hop and jazz)but why are they different?? i mean i understand but hip hop also uses more energy and effort aswell as picking the right music. many people get confused with the music but their totally different maybe if you explain that in more detail??!

There's a song from the early 90's that was Jazz and Hip Hop together I just remember it had a good sound and the only words I remember were Funky,Funky. I know that's not much. I'd appreciate any suggestions. I am looking for that one too. and the guy goes dobie dobie waap and has someone playing the trumpet... anybody know it

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