The Definitive "Racist Kramer" Post (Updated)

damn. that apology video is intense. if there's one positive aspect of this, it's the fact that dude went on letterman and when asked what he had left to do, he said, "I just have to do personal work." white dude, national tv, speaking about personal anti-racist struggle.

richards didn't go on letterman to wield some cynical PR tools or gloss over the situation. he came on to confront himself and the situation. he obviously has seriously shocked himself. that's deep! if more white folks were able to be public and honest about such moments of reckoning, white folks in general would be farther down that path.

i could condemn richards for being racist, but like the blog you linked says, that goes without saying. so instead, here's some props for acknowledging that reality with a great deal of honesty. struggle is good.

Michael Richards a.k.a Kramer is only the tip of the iceberg. There are millions of white Americans and whites across the world that feel that way. We as Black people need to stop this silly MLK dream BS and end this living nightmare. Whites only respect violence and we will continue to suffer unless we do what it takes to end this BS. We can kill for crack but not freedom!! WTF The reason the word 'cracker' and 'nigger' are not the same is because whites were not enslaved by the most brutal and evil slavery known to man. AND there is a difference between using the word �nigger� in a sketch and calling someone in the audience �nigger�, where this is actually addressed to a particular person. The word nigger was used to magnify psychological operations early in American history for free labor and some sick idea of superiority. The only superiority I see is a much higher degree of evil. Calling us niggers is not what upset me the most, the comment about lynching and sodomy is what really got me steaming. The word �nigger� is not nearly as bad as the hundreds of Black men and boys that hung from trees. Second, when you speak of rap music... A little history for you stupid David Duke repeating idiots: Rap music started out as uplifting the Black condition in the world. As soon as white children started buying rap, the so-called 'gangsta rap' became the dominate rap format. There were many more positive rap groups back when rap was really Black music. Non-blacks buy 80%+ of rap music for the last 13 years or so. Your children drive the market by dollars, rap is commercial (white washed) so to reference it is silly. By reading the comments posted it again proves whites are not that intelligent, whites relied on evil and technology to gain the upper hand on other races. But do not think your azz can�t be dealt with, the game is never over�. As a matter of fact it just began. Keep spewing your BS all across the world. We are listening and tired of your BS. Black people worldwide let us get our stuff together and don�t whine when they only be what they are. Let us pool our resources and starve the racist where ever they are. We don�t have the continuity to truly be racist, we do not have any real power to render them financially and politically impotent. Never allow one Black dollar get into the hands of a white racist; no matter how much you need or want an item they produce. We will never forget slavery and we will honor our ancestors for their resilience, strength, bravery, and endurance; properly one day. Let us never forget, less we find ourselves in the same position. Let us crush their ideology out of existence; this is the only thing we should be working towards the revenge of our ancestors and the awakening of our children. We should not be ashamed of being enslaved because we are the victims of slavery and the after effects of slavery; in this society whites are very proud of their role in slavery and subsequent racist apartheid system. I would think a rational and good person would be ashamed of this action, but NO, they are proud and you consider them not evil? How could you do half of the things they have done for over 400 yrs and be proud of it? And you state God bless America? What God bless the enslavers and tortures that are greedily devouring resources across the globe only to feed some psychopathic ideology? Good or evil God? Use your conscious to decide.

Just read some of the sick rhetoric these so-called humans produce:

http://homepage.mac.com/garyligi/iblog/C1344787019/E20061121175908/
http://www.yikers.com/video_michael_richards_gives_public_apology.html

embryo:

Honestly, I didn't take it as him being distraught so much as "not all there". He looked like he was literally brain-damaged.

The paragraph where he says he doesn't believe Richards thinks he's racist is dead-on. The rest of the piece, not so much. I think he's conflating "Seinfeld" the show with Michael Richards the actor who happened to appear on the show, and I don't see how the two are really all that related.

One thing I liked about "Seinfeld" (please note the past tense) was that it didn't condescend or pretend to know about the lives/psyche/humor of people of color, so it didn't come across as patronizing. I also disagree with,

"When you think about �Seinfeld,� and you realize the only recurring Black characters were either there because they made our white heroes uncomfortable simply by being Black "

Well, that was the whole point. These were four out-of-touch white folks who were too self-absorbed to notice the world around them. The joke was how bizarre their everyday lives could be, when in fact THEY were the ones whose worldview was out of synch with the rest of the universe. And calling them "heroes" is really a stretch... I guess Charnas missed the final episode when these four selfish, whiny a-holes were sentenced to a year in prison for their overall nastiness. That was part, if not most, of the show's appeal, to see that there were people out there (fictional though they were) who were sh!ttier than the sh!ttiest people you knew... and they often got their comeuppance at the end of each episode. (This was before "reality" TV... coincidence?)

OK, that being said, Richards's outburst really ruined the whole show for me. I don't think I'll be watching the re-runs like I used to, knowing that "Kramer" would rather go back to the days where we could be strung up for heckling "The Man" (who isn't particularly funny outside of that show, BTW). As far as I'm concerned, he went the Mel Gibson route big time... it remains to be seen if he can turn this around, in my eyes at least.

He "nailed it"?! So, I shouldn't have been surprised because Seinfeld was an inherently racist show and therefore anything connected to it or derived from it is also racist?!

Despite what this idiot says, Seinfeld depicted the Upper West Side pretty acurately. The exterior shots of Jerry's apartment building look like they were filmed on Central Park West- somewhere in the 80's or 90's. Guess what- almost no Black people live there. NYC is very segregated in general, but that section especially. In fact Seinfeld dealt with this issue pretty frankly (and humorously) with that 'George needs a Black Friend' episode. Anyone who saw that episode and understood it could not have drawn the same conclusions as this guy did.

"Monochromatic"...the "archaic White mind"...I'd like to see you apply this standard to all those shows on UPN and the WB....

I'm really sickened by this piece and your take on it, Jay.

I have to say I agree with Kami re. conflating Richards with the show he appeared on--but the piece couldn't be more spot-on about Seinfeld.

To AW, you should read/see Danny Hoch's performance piece about auditioning for Seinfeld.

quickly:

I basically agree with what Joe said in Dan's blog and now Sparkle Shortz: Dan's post is spot on in its analysis of "Seinfeld" in general, but how that explains/informs the Michael Richards incident is harder to parse out. There is not a straightforward cause/-effect relationship between Seinfeld's treatment of whiteness/otherness and Richards' outburst, but I don't believe they are unrelated either. I don't think Dan was saying anything so simplistic as what AW suggests, but of course he can speak for himself better than I.

I have lived for 20+ years in the neighborhood we're discussing, and the question of segregation on the UWS is not so clear either.. the building Seinfeld lives in would probably have few Black people if any, but as soon as he walks out into the actual neighborhood, the shared space outside our apartment doors where we live most of our lives in NYC, it's a very different picture. He can only keep living in an all-white world if he maintains a lifestyle, social circle and basic perception of the world that renders invisible a large percentage of the people he walks by and interacts with everyday.

Which lots of people here (and not just here, obvs) are actually doing. AW in that sense is correct, many white Manhattanites do live this way, so Seinfeld's UWS is not wholly fictional. Sadly it's a pretty accurate depiction of the fundamentally unreal, distorted relationship many real life Seinfelds have with the world around them; a relationship that reduces so many of their neighbors to others who occasionally perplex or bemuse us with their otherness, but remain essentially invisible as human beings.

No time to take this any further now... I don't know to what extent Michael Richards lives in that reality (though the usage of "Afro-American" seems like a hint), and I don't know how much that can explain about his actions. But the fact that he helped create one of the most prominent pop-culture reinforcements of that reality is surely more than coincidental.

OK Sparkle Shortz, I saw Hoch's routine on his Seinfeld audition (it's up on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8HfgFJnSCM )- a pretty manipulative routine and video if you ask me. As far as I can tell, Jerry and the writers had written the part as a Latino pool attendant- hence the name Ramon, and Hoch decided he didn't want the character to be Latino. Well fuck him!

There's a lot of interesting things that could be discussed around this but Charnas' attempt to make a causal connection between Seinfeld and Richards' behavior is ridiculous and possibly irresponsible.

Yo,
Y'all puttin' too much pressure on whiteys. Askin' them not to be racist, coward savages.

Think about that.

Y'all are forcing their hands. Let them be themselves.

When these dudes say "I lost control." What the fuck does that mean?

Translation: "I let the mask slip all the way off." or "I lost my disguise."

Remember there have to be LAWS in place to make these fuckers respect people that are non-white.

Think about that. A fuckin LAW. They don't have it in them naturally.

Yo, best believe, that all the whiteys that have known Mike richards all of his personal and professional life know AND share his sentiments on non-white people.

Words are lies. Actions are truth.
Know this.

More later.

Oh, and this is gonna be real broad but I gotta say it...

I know two things if I 'ont know nuntin' else:

1. The world is fucked up.
2. Whiteys run it.

Why is that? What is wrong with these folks? What's missing in their makeup that makes them have total disregard for non-white people and the planet they live on?

-Black People

Sometimes I don't folow along with Sinbad. But he nailed it for me.

Its Hollyhood... it will be forgotten when the next person screws up. I could have cared less for the apology more so he needs to acknowledge that he is a racist worst. warse than that in my book are the things he said and THAT is something I can't forgive him for no matter what.

Dudes, it was just a show. Relax if Kramer don't like Blacks the he don't like 'em. There are more important things in the world than what Stanley Spadowski thinks.

Peace

btw I still think Seinfeld is funny

Dudes, it was just a show. Relax if Kramer don't like Blacks then he don't like 'em. There are more important things in the world than what Stanley Spadowski thinks.

Peace

btw I still think Seinfeld is funny

One thing did and continues to baffle me about this whole ordeal:

You notice how white folks get sudden surges of courage when odds are tipped unevenly in their favor?

And they claim victory from these uneven odds.

Like white person + a dog or

white person + a position of power or

white person + standing behind you or

white person + sitting high in a horse or a pickup truck

or white person in a sheet with twelve to fifteen of his homies barging into your crib in the middle of the night.

this is what Mike richards brags about.

I was wrapping my head around it, but I can't quite figure out how or why these dudes boast over such false victories.

Mike richards or any white man/woman vs. a black person of their same height and weight proportions = knocked the fuck out.

simple equation.

Oh, and this was forecasted by the punchline-free "comedy" of one pure savage Sarah Silverman in her stand up routine Jesus is Magic.

No redemption in the "jokes" that she spewed.

Whiteys play a complex game. You gotta love it.

See, boom, it's like they'll be standin' on a corner with a dingy, dirty t-shirt on and you're minding you're business moseying on down the street with a clean tee on and they'll be like, "Hey! You got on a dirty t-shirt!"

You know, before you can even notice theirs. Not like you cared in the first place. So then without ever accusing them, you find yourself backpedaling denying that your shirt is dirty.

Meanwhile you never noticed theirs and in their minds they're sayin, "Yeah we got 'em."

That's the science on how they try to accuse the globe's indigenous people of color of being "savage" and "uncivilized".

But it is and always was them who are the true savages.

They are the ones who cannot process difference. And in their savage confusion the only solution that they can come up with is to destroy.

More later (it's mac and cheese time on the I'm-eatin-early sneak tip).

-Black People

Hey "Black People", bigotry doesn't justify bigotry. Your blanket classification of all caucasians as world-controlling racists is essentially just as ignorant as anything Michael Richards said. Racism will only end when we start respecting each other as individuals rather than representatives of an entire group of people. And you're talking about "they're the only ones who cannot process difference" while talking about "whiteys" and "savages"? What a hypocrite.

You're right.

I take back the "whiteys" part.

It does have a sorta slurrish vibe to it.
And that detracts from the issue.

Cuz I know how white people like to assume the naive positon and mutter shit like "well they called us crackers and, and, and when they call themselves niggers it's cool".

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

To you and sarah silverman,

We never call ourselves niggers.

NEVER.

It's called NWA : Niggaz with attitudes. not
niggers with attitudes.

Once and for all, please note, never have you or never will you hear a black person from any downtrodden ghetto approach another black person and say "what's up my nigger?" Never.

or you'll never hear any black person say "Aw man them some crazy ass niggers I love 'em"

You gave us Niggers

we flipped it to niggas

replacing the "er" with an "a"

the ebonic version of the slur takes on an entirely different meaning for black folks.

But you already know this.

So now you know something else.

We are on to you and your naive charade.

Can't assume the naive stance anymore, can you?

But the savage reference has to stay.

I can think of no other term aside from cowardice to define your people's actions.

And let's say you're a good guy, Don.

Hell let's say that you're one of the pleasant white folks that I work with.

Okay, you have a pass.

But know that pleasant white folks are not the norm.

Take a look at the planet since they left western europe.

everything is skewed to white people.

so if you are pleasant or I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that 3 out of ten of you are pleasant then that leaves 70% of your people who are more or less savages.

Hardly the miniority. Hence the justified generalization.

Hey, but you don't take my word for it.

Crack open a history book.

But you know what?

On the real tho, Don, just come clean, man.

I won't be shocked.

You don't really feel that any non-white person should actually speak on race relations, do you?

Especially when the conversation exposes the common root of all the problems as white people?

You wannna say something like "we're all a little bit racist", don't you?

Or "black people say racist stuff too".

Dig:

#1. We're all not a little bit racist. Because racism all over the planet is biased to benefit those with light or white skin. If we were all racist, sometimes people with dark skin would be cool now wouldn't they?

#2. Ain't no black muvafucka ever dressed up in a hood and tried to set a white muvafucka house on fire. Ain't no black folks ever lynched a white dude and laughed. the history of black people in this country contributes to an entirely different set of emotions and sensitivity when it comes to race. But you white folks know this. You'rs so smart right? so you play the naive role.
Well, now you know that we're on to you.

this is funny.

See what I mean? Now since white people are rich and everyone else is scrambling they wanna say "let's start respecting each other".

Funny indeed.

-Black People (Happy Holidays -- it's pumpkin pie time!)

a black man gets called a nigger by a rich white guy..... surprise?....
i dont give a damn what kind of white person you are you have ALL called a black man a nigger at one point in your life.
not savages? hell yeah they are! look at every world problem we have today (and i mean ALL of them) and everyone of them will be traced to a white man. matter fact the last 300 years of history (and im not playing the slavery card i mean all of world history) . kramer isnt sorry he's just sorry everyone heard him.

Okay.. Black People and trusouth have just demonstrated the very thing that is wrong with some people of color. I will say this 1st -- The whole "how its spelled or said or who says it" arguement is straight garbage. I for one as a Black Man born and raised in the south and living in NYC am so tired of hearing that craazy arguement. 98% of the world's population is racist. .. I will let that sink in on you for a second. 98%

How you ask did i come to that fact? Very easily .. everyone is proud of who they are and in that sense you are going to want to promote your own. The 2% is for folks that are mixed AND self-hating.

Yes, the history of the world proves every bit of what you two and MANY others say all the time. Most if not all major world conflicts(its going to be hard to convince me that conflicts within certain religions are caused by white people, but hey I wouldn't be shocked if you could) are caused by white folks.

I know that the word Nigger, Nigga, Nicca, or however else you want to spell it won't go away. But thats not the real issue as I saw it. As Sinbad said, It was a lack of respect. plain and simple. Sadly I don't have much hope of the world being respectful to each other the world over, but I have enough respect of others to know that most folks try to do the right thing.

FYI. I have faced FAR MORE racism, bigotry in the north than in the south. but maybe its because I can see it.

Black People:

Thanks for responding, and for retracting the "whitey" references. Personally, the word itself doesn't bother me - it's the characterisation as part of some monolithic ethnic group with identical attitudes and ideas that I took exception to.

When you say things to me like "You gave us Niggers", you're implying that I possess the same racist mindset as whites who put the term into common usage. I resent that. The color of my skin doesn't represent the color of my thought. Neither does yours, nor anyone for that matter.

It seems you have some serious issues regarding white people. You probably have a good reason for most of them; I don't know anything about your personal experiences or current situation, so I'm not qualified to judge. All I have to go on is what you've written here.

I'd appreciate it if you could do the same. My post neither denied the existence of racism nor questioned the usage of the N word. I sure as hell don't think that non-white people should shut up regarding race relations. Please don't try to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my mind based on your preconceptions, regardless of your previous experiences with other people. I'm my own man.

Let me address the two points you raised.

"#1. We're all not a little bit racist. Because racism all over the planet is biased to benefit those with light or white skin. If we were all racist, sometimes people with dark skin would be cool now wouldn't they?"

I don't think everyone has racist tendencies either. However, racism isn't the exclusive preserve of white-skinned people, nor are all non-whites exempt from possessing such feelings, at least based on my experiences of living in other countries. As far as I can see, it exists in all cultures.

By saying that I'm not trying to excuse or play down racism by whites against people of color, which is possibly the most common kind in western society both currently and historically. I'm saying that it is possible for people of color to hold prejudiced views against whites and other people of color. The power dynamics may differ, but the bigotry is essentially the same.

"#2. Ain't no black muvafucka ever dressed up in a hood and tried to set a white muvafucka house on fire. Ain't no black folks ever lynched a white dude and laughed. the history of black people in this country contributes to an entirely different set of emotions and sensitivity when it comes to race. But you white folks know this. You'rs so smart right? so you play the naive role.
Well, now you know that we're on to you."

I'm not American, I'm from New Zealand, so I come from a totally different social and historical background. We have our own colonial history of oppression of the indigenous Maori people, and discrimination against Chinese and other non-European groups. The perpetrators: European caucasians.

I've studied U.S. history too, especially the struggle for civil rights, so I have a small awareness of what has gone on there, and what continues to influence social discourse today.

Listening to rap and becoming involved in the hip-hop movement as a little kid taught me a lot about what people who aren't white go through in a predominantly white society, and helped me to learn to reject the prejudiced views of people in my family and community. On the flip side, I learned that some rappers who could speak so eloquently about oppression by whites and the need for justice could also turn around and spit something conversely bigoted, misogynistic, or homophobic.

I don't think I'm smarter than you, and I'd like to think I'm not that naive either. So what do you think I'm being naive about, who is this "we" who are "on to me"?

White people aren't all rich. Some are very, very poor. What that has to do with mutual respect, I don't know. Please explain.

Trusouth:

"i dont give a damn what kind of white person you are you have ALL called a black man a nigger at one point in your life."

I think you're going to have a hard time proving that, even if you've already convinced yourself that I'm just another racist white boy.

"not savages? hell yeah they are! look at every world problem we have today (and i mean ALL of them) and everyone of them will be traced to a white man. matter fact the last 300 years of history (and im not playing the slavery card i mean all of world history)."

Let's assume that you're right, and everything is white people's fault. So what exactly have I, a Scottish-Irish New Zealander living in Japan, done to you? If the answer is nothing, I'd appreciate you holding off on judging me to be a "savage" until I do something to justify it.

All i got to say is...

Sienfeld was mad wac neway.

To the homie Don:

You goddam right I got issues with white people!

I gotta right to be hostile my people being persecuted!

Just fuckin' wit' you.

Yo, as stated, you may be the miniority in your race.

You know, like the cool white guy who doesn't give a fuck about all the racial bullshit.

But I for one won't let my gaurd down. And if you are pleasant, you still don't represent the whole of white people.

This next comment applies to you and the other guy belve:
Being proud of who you are is one thing and telling a muvafucka he ain't cool because his skin is to dark or his nose is too wide is the common racism spread by white folks all over the planet.

Quick history: The entire world was living peacefully... Native Americans on both of the Americas (which include Mexicans). Asians in Asia. Indigenous people in what they now call Australia. And Africans in Alkelbulan. Peaceful East Indians in India.

When the plague was about to eat a hole in white folks ass and wipe them off the face of the Earth they set out to spread they're savagery all over the planet.

to China.

Africa.

East India

Australia.

the Americas

Everywhere you go the story is the same.

White savages came.

They saw.

They fucked shit up and told the people there that they were wrong for not being white.

Historical fact.

Not conjecture.

As a result racism and racial awareness has been skewed to reflect how white you look and act.

Ever notice how there are dark east indians in India but the only ones you ever see or hear about or the ones who are lighter?

I'm sure you can cite other examples.

that "98% of the world is racist" comment is loosely based and does not give an example of when and where it was ever cool to be darker or not white looking.

You won't find an example because none exists.

you buy into white people's bullshit by trying to believe we are all the same. and we are just like them.

we are not.

The asians did not colonize the whole planet.

white people did.

The Africans did not drop an atom bomb on any
other country then horde all such weapons to defend against "terrorism".

white people did.

The Native americans didn't enslave the indians and to build railroads.

white people did.

But check it:

I see that some of you dudes get caught up.

A wise man once said that you don't have to be mad at white folks or hate them. Just trade with them.

Once you conduct your business with them and understand their history, you won't find yourself defending them and making a fool of yourself.

We ain't all the same.

See, white folks think everything is cool now and we should have peaceful dialogues about these issues because white folks are doing well.

It's like they think we shouldn't harbor any bad feelings about the past. We should be happy for white folks 'cause they're rich.

Some of the other shit you said, Belve, I really don't know what you're talking about but you must be honest and not elitist.

And admit that you have never heard and will never hear a black person call themselves a nigger.

You gotta acknowledge that in the hood those two words take on different meanings.

Sure, the process is gradual.

They gave us niggers.

We flipped it to niggas.

But we never ever, ever called ourselves niggers - with an "er".

And in time we will cease to use to the word altogether.

But for now know that they are two different words.

Entirely.

-Black People

Waaaiiiiiit a minute...
"Quick history: The entire world was living peacefully... Native Americans on both of the Americas (which include Mexicans). Asians in Asia. Indigenous people in what they now call Australia. And Africans in Alkelbulan. Peaceful East Indians in India."
That is really, REALLY just not true.
I'm not denying the existence of white privelege or the majority of white peoples' delusion of their own supremacy (I don't use the term "White Supremacy" because I for one do not believe white people are supreme) but if we're going for historical accuracy then for heaven's sake let's be accurate. Romanticizing an entire race of people, and their history, is just as dangerous as demonizing them. It dehumanizes them. I've experienced racism as much from within my "own" as from outsiders, and it hurts just as bad. But the more I've learned from other people who share a different heritage/culture, hell the more I learn about my OWN people's history, the more I realize it's an insidious problem within all people, even if it's most widely practiced by those of European heritage. (I'm not trying to sound siddity, but "Whitefolks" is too all-encompassing.)
I guess what I'm trying to say is, learn more about other peoples and their history, from a respectful, honest point of view, and you'll see that history--both the good and the bad-- does not begin and end with white people and their bullsh!t. Much as they would probably like you to believe that.

Black People- Your Comments reeks of racism... You sound like the biggest racist here! Even more so than Michael Richards!

Your inner pungent HATE towards OTHERS is impossible to ignore. And your GENERALIZATION of an entire race/ethnicity is the core of racism. It's one thing for a white man to be ignorant but that doesn't mean you should do the same.

And no I am not white. I am Asian/Hispanic mix, also a minority.

The asians did not colonize the whole planet.

white people did.

The Africans did not drop an atom bomb on any other country then horde all such weapons to defend against "terrorism".

white people did.

The Native americans didn't enslave the indians and to build railroads.

white people did.

And it's not out of some ethical high ground that they didn't.



It's because no Asian power had the combination of economic strength and naval might to do so until Imperial Japan (which did try to colonize half the world), no African nation has ever had the scientific and industrial capability to build nuclear weapons (save Apartheid South Africa) and Native Americans regularly committed acts against other nations (human sacrifice and cannibalism, in Mexico) that would make the white colonists look like a bunch of pussies.



Don't kid yourself -- if brown people haven't committed the crimes you're focusing on, it's for lack of opportunity, not some ethical superiority.



So let's stop with the racial-determinist bullshit.

Illxshun and kami both of you dudes blowing hot air but y'all ain't sayin' nuntin'.

I ain't got no problem speaking directly on this subject.

No need to talk around it. Y'all dudes get all shook when somebody tell it like it is.

So what's your point, Kwami?

You wrote a whole paragraph using big words and shit, but what is you saying?

Lemme tell you what I'm saying again:

Try it a little more clearly this time...

History shows us that in their savagery white people fucked the entire world over.

No other race on the planet has traveled to every continent desecrated the people there.

Only white people.

Now are you saying that is not true?

Or are you really saying "Please don't shine the light on white people like that? Some of them are nice. And I don't wanna have to reevaluate my outlook on them" ?

Cuz you ain't show us another race that rivals their savagery.

Oooh! Oh wait!

I just thought about something. that's it. You don't like it when I call them savages do you?

You believe them.

You think they had a right to do what they did, right?

You feel like they are "god's chosen people".

You wanna call it...survival, hunh?

Pity.

And illxshun, if you are indian meaning hispanic from the americas and asian then you should be well aware of what the conquistadors did to your people.

Get up on white folks past so you can understand them today.

Never once did I say I hate them.

I'm just citing history and I can understand if hate is what comes to your mind. But I never said hate. I choose my words very carefully.

They got you fucked up and believing their bullshit so that anytime you speak directly and honesty about race relations as it applies to white folks you feel like you are (and accuse others of being) a racist.

Hey, this ain't my story.

Read anything on their past and you tell us how you interpret it.

-Black People (time for some turkey day leftovers!)

Richards is right, if more anglo-saxons would rise to the occassion and clearly state their disdain with the growing problem of minorities, it would'nt be such a shock. Let's face it minorities are responsible for the decline of cultural standards and are physically very different looking. Don't get me wrong all my help are Mexican and I have black fiends. But everyone must honestly look at themselves and ask am I contributing to, or taking more, from society? I am proud to say that I am quite wealthy and worked and studied extremely hard for it. My entire neighborhood is white and I would'nt have it any other way. We all work, don't rely on government handouts, don't engage in crime, and are quite civilized. With all the crime in the news being committed mostly by blacks and latinos how is a good Christian white suppossed to feel???????????? Andrew TalbettDallas,Tx

I'm a speak quickly on this & then sorry, gotta be outa town for a few & won't have time to check the Internet.

First BP I'm ROTFLMAO at the way you're crying crocodile tears about the state of the world being fucked over 'cause of white people and in the same breath your'e bragging about stuffing your face w/turkey & pumpkin pie in observance of one of the quintessential holidays celebrating white fuckery... you're either a charlatan or you don't know as much history as you pretend you do. I'm beginning to suspect the former. (Are you even Black?)

Second, I stand by my criticism of what you said earlier. You claim everyone was "living peacefully" and all I could think of was every stupid ass condescending white Park Slope yuppie asshole going around saying, "Oh... you Asians/Native Americans/Indians are such a PEACE-loving people... so SPIRITUAL... so in touch with NATURE..." but ask them ANYTHING about Asian/Indian/Native American history, culture or politics BEFORE the white man (and surprise surprise there WERE cultures that did exist before the white man) and, like you, they're clueless. Just like the folks at Seinfeld, the "other" only exists in your mind as some kind of faceless entity to be idealized for the white man's -- and YOUR -- convenience. Stop glamorizing us and read (and RESPECT) our history without constantly sticking us in the context of the white man. We're a little tired of it.

And third, I make no apologies for the "big words." If you don't understand what I said, get a damn dictionary.

You rule, Kami.

Kudos, Andrew.
I know so many people that feel the way you do. I for one. When you go to a comedic performance expect to be shocked. Maybe if niggers were'nt so loud and obtrusive in public, the white majority would'nt feel the way they do!

Word 'em up, I'm Black.

The turkey day references were sarcastic jokes. Of course I know it's history. When you rap about this shit, you gotta maitain a sense of humour.

And I wouldn't mention the different tribes if I didn't know anything about their lives prior to the white people explosion.

In fact that was my point.

And of course their were wars and clashes on all of the continents. But they didn't take that shit all over the world.

The scale is much different.

You and brother fighting in the backyard is different from you and your family conpsiring to conquer the entre neighborhood.

See the geneva convention.

You don't have to be a history or poli-sci buff all you need is a little common sense.

If you 'ont wanna talk about this stuff directly perhaps you should hit the jurassic 5 or "peter jackson drops outta the hobbit" threads instead.

Barb and Andrew keep it coming, this is what I need your defenders like Kami to see.

-Black People

I don't see why blacks get upset, when whites express themselves. Black comedians do it all the time. I agree with both Kami and Andrew.

P.S. (Black People), could learn alot from an educated black like Kami, your use of language perpetuates the dumb black stereotype.

I forgot. It was called the Berlin convention. Not geneva.

-Black People

I'm a talk how I talk.

We 'ont live for whites' acceptance anymore.

I fucked that up.

Lemme throw a double negative in there.

We 'ont live for whites' acceptance no more.

-Black People

The truth is "black people" is that most whites only tolerate blacks, our ancestors brought you over as slaves. Yes white's are oppurtunistic and that is a phenomenal quality, you should be selfish, and vain. That is why the richest citizens on earth are predominantly of European ancestory. You are different, and far less advanced, but it's not pollitically correct for truth, now is it. You know it and I know it. I'm proud that I'm white. All the world would be white if they could, that's why black women str8ten their hair, and wear colored contacts, why Asian have their legs elongated to mimick height, the world knows and excepts the truth, you should except reality and deal with it.

Bravo Danny!

Give us a little bit more. Let these people here know how you really feel, man.

You saw Borat right?

You agree with the slavery comments from the frat boys?

Spit it out man. This is the internet. You're anonymous.

Tell us more about the toleration of blacks.

Or selfishness and vanity.

I'm lovin it!

-Black People

Joe Grossberg, I didn't see your post earlier.

We must've posted at the same time and that's why I missed it.

But first, the capabilities to destroy, divide and conquer as far as my points were concerened is not as important at the desire to do so.

What I'm pointing out and examing is the innate qualities of white folks that make them do the evil that they do.

I'm not into internet insults or quoting posts and dissecting them line for line.

But some of the things you touched upon don't clearly illustrate your point.

And I'm not nitpicking, either.

But for example japan is a nation. Not a race. Obviously you know that and I've seen you post before so I know you're intelligent.

However what I'm trying to point out is that in order for you to accuse asians of doing what white people did it would have to be a combined effort like say japan china korea and thailand all setting out to conquer europe.

you see what I'm getting at?

This is how white people did china and africa.

what did you mean by native american committed acts against other nations?

you mean they sailed across the globe and set up aztec shrines in norway?

because that would be the equivalent of what white folks did.

again, the capabilities are different from the actual desire to waylay other races.

also see my example about bros fighting in their backyards.

you know what?

I'll get serious for a second and really try to open the floor for some profound discussion.

What I've been saying and suggesting is a true savage nature that exists in white people that have been exhibited in their history and actions.

But maybe there is an explanantion for it.

For instance, the thing i mentioned about the plague and the world before white folks left europe.

Maybe that expansion (or the european expansion as it is called) gives rise to their attitudes or disdain for non whites.

You know, maybe they had to adopt a "me-first" "fuck the world" attitude to survive.

Maybe coming close to losing your life and lands could contribute to an incessant fear of everything.

Maybe this will help us to understand white folks a little more.

I'm theorizing here.

Haven't completely worked it out.

-Black People

damn .
hey don you still here?
this is what i was talking about. THIS is the 85 percent.

Dear racist white people,

Shut the fuck up and listen. You don't have to agree. Just fucking listen.

Fact 1: white folks are not genetically different from folks of color. There is more genetic variation between members of the same race than between members of different races. We are all from Africa.

Fact 2: Race is a social construct that has absolutely no relationship with biology. If that's confusing, let me put it another way: race is about how you or I take cues from skin color, culture, ancestry, origin. It starts and ends there. Those aspects of people are only "racially" significant because of the things that we've learned to assume based on them.

Fact 3: Everything you think you know about how white people and people of color relate must jibe with facts 1 and 2. If it doesn't, it's wrong.

Fact 4: I and other white folks are not satisfied living with people who demean human beings and themselves the way that you are willing to do. The problem we share is that during our education -- formal and otherwise -- we have been taught to take cues from skin color, culture, etc., the same way you have. Not because it's right, but because it is a part of maintaining white supremacy. You've taken those lessons with enthusiasm and have made plain that you work to maintain white supremacy. You clearly believe that you are not creating something out of nothing, but rather are maintaining something good that has been handed to you. We anti-racist white folks believe that you -- and we, to the extent that we fail to recognize and end our own perpetuation of white supremacy -- are building a disgusting, abhorrent and morally wrong system that requires daily renewal and perpetuation and which results in an incomprehensible amount of human suffering. From New York, to New Orleans, to Africa, to South America, to Mexico, the events that occur daily to maintain our supremacy are beyond forgiveness, beyond unacceptable. They are crimes against humanity.

And to the extent that people like you support these crimes, anti-racist folks of all races will stand together to take from you your comfort, to take from you your will to oppress, and to remove you from any and all access to steering wheels, helms, and budget line-items of all forms. Understand this.

My advice to you is to change, join the struggle for justice, and turn away from evil. I will not act to hurt you out of faith that someday you'll change. But I won't protect you, I will not defend you, and I will not consider you a member of my family in any way.

"Black People", Your the reason I hate niggers.

Danny, I think you need to elaborate on that. Otherwise this isn't going to get anywhere. Are you acknowledging that to you conversing with Black People is as good as conversing with any black person anywhere?

Clarity nice post.

As far as Danny, Clarity, you're not really supposed to interact with that person on any honest and mature level.

There won't be any stimulating feedback. It's moot.

But fun to fuel, I must admit.

-Black People

Clarity,
Your fact #2 comes across crystal clear. I was driving through Beverly Hills today and two little white kids were stopped at the corner on their bikes. Lil youngins about 2 and 7 with little helmets on. And they waved to me. And I smiled and I waved back and I was saying to myself it's gonna be a shame when they grow and get taught how to be racist.

I wonder when was everyone's first racist memory or "talk".

You know like the dinner conversation that Ed Norton's dad gave him in American History X.

Sometimes I feel bad for white kids (like the ones in Jesus Camp) when they're taught how to be racist.

As far as your fact number four, how many of yourselves do you think can be numbered in a sample of 10?

You know like, 1 outta 10, 3 outta 10 and so on.

Had to read your post a few times. One of the more coherent pieces around here.

-Black People

thanks for the kind words, BP. thank you for all you've contributed here too.

I don't recall my first racist message. I think what was foundational for me was the segregated nature of the area I grew up in. There was no active "otherizing" neccessary when the 97% whiteness of my hometown outside Boston was accepted without commentary by virtually everyone around me. I was raised by liberals so at least I had that "racism is bad" thing, but as you know that's a far cry from "racism is real and in you and me and we gotta fuckin' end it." Around here race, class, and geography are so overwhelmingly overlapping that all you have to do is grow up with white skin in a middle-class area to be indoctriated.

As far as our numbers, I don't know, I couldn't say. Now that I think about it, sadly few. But it depends where you go. Most of the white folks I maintain relationship to are engaged in at least some level of continuing anti-racist struggle, which is both testament to the alliances/family we build and to the possibly-negative tendency to distance ourselves from other white folks who are less aware of how racism hurts them. I don't hold it against any person of color for wanting nothing to do with whites who fuck up, but to me it's probably key as an anti-racist white to be enduring relationships with any white person who wants to know me, so that I can provide insight when possible and check folks who may not have other sources of daylight. I'll be deep in here tryina work change so no one who would be less safe here has to be. But at the same time I need to maintain -- prolly more importantly -- relationships with my family of color. It's a tightrope walk, just one form of struggle. difficult, neccessary, and somehow beautiful.

but, there are lots of us. we all fuck up too, every single one. but there are lots of us tryina learn, tryina grow, tryina keep humble, tryina subvert what so many white folks take for granted. if we've been at it long enough i don't think we know any other way. on the other hand there's always that bed of privilege we could lie in if we falter, and which is always there to remind us the deal we could make with the devil. so we keep each other real as best we can. with the help of folks like yourself, of course, speaking your piece as well. so again, thank you for that.

I apologize for referring to you as other than how you referred to yourself, Black People. I actually decided not to abbreviate your name but then did it anyway, somehow.

I'm really pleased to see people like Kami and Clarity making intelligent contributions to this debate, and sad and pissed off to see others like Barbara, Andrew and Danny chipping in to reinforce the racist white stereotype. Yeah Trusouth, it's not easy to argue that most white people aren't racist based on this sample.

Black People, you're still talking about white people this and white people that. If that's the reductive, overly simplistic level you want to argue at, there's no point in attempting to continue a dialogue with you. You've obviously had your mind made up about me (and all white-skinned people for that matter) right from the start, condescendingly assigning words and thoughts to me that aren't mine, just because of the color of my skin. If you can't look past that and get to know what an individual is really all about, that's your prerogative, but that sure isn't going to change anything for the better.

Yeah, 'white people' have done (and continue to do) a hell of a lot of fucked up shit. I don't expect you or anyone else reading this who's been on the receiving end to forgive and forget. But if you think you can dub me or anyone else a racist just because of skin color and history, it ain't me that's the naive one.

Oh yeah, and fuck Kramer too.

History and the facts are bigger than whoever you are.

They are bigger than whoever I am.

You may not like history. And it may make you feel a...twang of stinging guilt.

But you can't direct those negative emotions at me.

Pull your feelings out and you'll be able to see truth. Anyone could've shed bright light on this subject.

All is takes is heart, honesty and a willingness to address the issues at their core.

It's not Black People or Don.

I don't even know you.

-Black People

I guess I'm what you would refer to as white, however I think of myself as just part of the human race. My first memory of racism happened when I was 8, my church congregation had it's first African-American visitors, a nice family of 5. Usually everyone was so friendly, but not on this day, their was a anxious tension on behalf of the white members, as if they were suprised these blacks would even come. Sure they shook hands and said their hello's but it was'nt like it normally was. This family of 5 invited friends on the facade that they were somehow welcome, unknowing, naive to the insincerity.Before you knew it the members of our chuch started leaving one by one, flocking to another church on the other side of town, over 15 miles away. I remember a potluck at home with some of those members one night after the migration to the new church, I'll never forget what my father said, it's funny the things that stick out the most, in the mind of a child, even after his death. "The niggers put up the money to buy the church", the pastor who was there agreed it was a shame. My mother never, ever said anything, when he started in the "niggers", maybe because her friends did it too. She would always say "daddy's sick with racism, and somethings you can't cure." I had black friends anyway and made a vow that I would never be my father. I just don't understand and perhaps never will. I can't hate a group of people that have been systematically discriminated, humiliated, murdered, impovershed. It kills me how wide spread racism is although they confuse you with lies, and excuses. It's hard for to summon a beleif in god with so much injustice in the world. I think of how the world turns a blind eye on Africa, the cradle of human civilization. Or the disaster in New Orleans, or Palestine or so on and so on. Is the white race predispositioned to hate, I'm seriously asking this hypothetical question? We will never solve problems without admissions of guilt. Life is not equal in this country, all you have to do is go to any public school to find that out, money is so disproportionately spread out it's not even funny. I beleive that yes (Black People), you have a right to be angry, there is alot to be angry about. Today I beleive that there is a determined effort on behalf of people in power to hold down non-whites. Anyone who is intelligent and an ally of truth can see this clearly. But what can I do?
The day before my father died, I remember watching him sleep, he was so fragile and weak. The man that I loved, admired, thought he was so strong and everything he said was true. We had'nt talked in 10 years, because I started seeing Bridget who is black, who is now my beautiful wife. He did'nt see my son's first steps, hear his first words, missed so many holidays, because of something so trivial as race. And then he passed. You see, my father had no spirit to give me, so I wen't out and found my own. I'll never be black, so I'll never understand the extent of your pain. But racism my friend causes us all pain.

Mad touching, Fabian.

What city was this that your church was in?

-Black People

Fort Worth,Texas; 20 miles west of Dallas.

I find it interesting that BP agreed with clarity, in that it means the "whitey" attitude isn't truly inherent but learned within the social background that for the most part is born out of the very beginning of social interactions.

Let me restate that this way. The racial hate is born out of the inherent nature of humans to be 1.Unique and 2. To socially dominate to his/her peers.

My experience is that racism is a combination of social attitudes and learning combined with opportunity.

True, the societies built upon Caucasian values have been the ones that have caused the most harm but I think it comes from the close proximity that they were fostered in at the time. That created a need to not only exert one's presence but also once grow outside of that.

And let�s face it only a few of the Caucasian societies/countries were ever bent on world domination Greek/Roman/English/Spanish/Portuguese/French/German. Notice a pattern there are all in VERY close proximity to each other. Some would include US in that equation but since the US powerbase is made up of parts of those nationalities and therefore taught from it, I will leave it out.

My point is that as I said racism isn't something that any group of people has the market cornered on.

I will not even try to justify the changing of the word Nigger/Nigga etc I will only say this... Does that mean Bitch/Beotch/etc. are all different words also??

BP, I'm not saying your points are not valid to your life but to make a summary judgment like that is just as racist as the very thoughts you condemn.

If a man hates/despise/distrust me for my color or my hairstyle or my upbringing... am I destined to hate/despise/distrust him for the same?

Or do we as each one learn to be at peace within ourselves and our fellow man? Trust me I aint waiting on that sh!t. But I will judge a person only on what I feel is fair and righteous.

Note: I tried to post this yesterday but couldn't.

Fabian, your question of predisposition to hate is not limited to race. It is a human condition.

Belve,
I 'ont know if we got past internet beef or what.

Just fuckin' around.

I try to tackle this stuff on light notes. Plus I'm more or less a positive brother. So I'm always gonna find something funny somewhere. Hope that doesn't fuck up the academic flow of things.

But yo, I'm guessing that something I said somewhere ain't completely sit well with you.

and I think that you are trying to say that racism is inherent in er'rybody, right?

I strongly beg to differ.

See, boom, what I'm trying to say is -- i think the term is reverse racism -- that in response to the racism from white people, non-whites developed their own brand of racism.

which isn't true racism. it's a reaction.

like in story telling. the hero and the heavy must have separate courses of action that support their needs. otherwise the responsive action or reaction is weak thus creating flat conflict or false conflict (any writers out there: don't bite my style)

that reactionary racism is false because it did not exist prior to the exposure of injustice by whites.

whew.

but jokes aside, to prove that wrong, just please give an example in any culture in any country in any time period after the european expansion when dark people got all the pussy (you thought I said all jokes aside, didn't you?)

racism is not natural to non-white people.

if we get to the bottom of what causes it in caucasians perhaps we can plot a course of action to help those like Mike richards.

-Black People

I know I've sent this to Jay before but I keep bringing up the Harvard study from earlier this year that (for me at least) shed alot of light on the relationship between injustice, racism, and privilege.

Basically these professors asked test subjects were to observe a "learner" who appeared to be subjected to painful shocks when he got an answer wrong. One group of subjects was given the option to move the learner to a different study where she'd receive positive reinforcement for right answer instead of being shocked for wrong ones. Most took the offer. The second group of subjects was given no such option, and could only watch as the learner was shocked again and again.

The subjects were then asked about their views of the learner. The first group, which was presented with an easy option to rectify the injustice, tended to describe the learners as "likeable, innocent victims of shocks who deserved to be reassigned to a positive reinforcement environment." Those who had no easy option to end the suffering tended to describe the victim in negative terms, as blameworthy and deserving of what happened to them.

When alleviating innocent suffering is at all difficult or complex, people will twist their perceptions until the victim deserves the suffering, making everything just again. www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/crcl/vol41_2/hanson.pdf
dsadevil.blogspot.com/2006/07/push-button.html

Hence the blindness to people of color and the idea that there is a problem at all. I think most right-thinking white liberals acknowledge a systematically unjust system, but all (each and every one) would claim the're not a part of it. As if it's only Nascar fans that make $28,000 a year who are benefiting from White privilege. My ass...

I must say i am white and lived in south london most of my life which was in brixton and i am sorry no one needs to racist either it being you black or white, i basically grew up with black people and hey man what is the difference it is a colour we all have blood arms and we are all living the same air. Oh and that bloke in the video is crap, sorry to say that he is boring.

AUTHOR:
EMAIL: kearney696@yahoo.com
IP: 200.29.137.217
URL:
DATE: 12/19/2006 09:16:48 PM

AUTHOR:
EMAIL: ripley620@yahoo.com
IP: 202.39.6.27
URL:
DATE: 12/19/2006 10:21:55 PM

racism is not natural to non-white people.

...

Everyone look down at your dick, note its color. Put it in some pink surrounded by a color other then you. Thats the only thing that can ever help. I cant believe I just sat here and read all this. Fuck white people, fuck black people, fuck everyone in between. When you see some dude standing there, thats what you see. If you see a black dude, or a white dude, or whatever. Your the problem. So many words are wasted on so many weak arguments. Fuckit. Everyone is to blame for everything. You, the reader. Its all your fault. Suck it up, go about your life, and lets blow string until we are all some mid-tone brown. Then we can find new reasons to hate each other and kill each other.

So fuckit.

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