There's No Such Thing as "Real Hip-Hop"

Thank you, Jay.

There is music, and then there is dogma, propaganda, bad poetry, advertising, pimping, tricking, etc. Some songs have great music, but stupid words and ideas... most of us can recognize this.

A friend of mine came to the recent observation that, "The words don't really matter that much. What matters is that the music sounds good."

A lot of music fans are willing to overlook the "content" of their music in favor of the pure musicality of it. Other fans sacrifice the musicality to satisfy their cultural ethics (read: insecurities).

I have no concerns about the audience for hip hop. In general, great music is recognized and appreciated, even if it is only a small group of hardcore fans. And, after all, music is not money or popularity... it is music.

But I do have much concern for our community of artists. I believe many of the subtleties of the tradition are being lost. It is no different than the transition from jazz and blues to funk and soul. But the problem this time is that we are losing the tradition WITHIN the tradition. The music is very similar, yet something is very different. Figuratively -- and literally -- the record is skipping.

Bravo. Is it ok if I cut and paste this into Word, print it out, committ it to memory then recite it to every and any one at any appropriate time? (and credit you, of course)

I'm glad u posted this. I wish all hiphop writers would display this sort of maturity. I've recently posted similar thoughts.

It's funny, this is the same issue I face in talking to people about blogs. Wanna dis kids on LiveJournal because they're not keeping it real MT-style? Fuck that.

On the other hand, hip-house is the only real hip hop. I think we all know that in our heart of hearts.

Look who this post brought out - Eric and Anil! What up!

Jay, thanks. This is definitely how I see things and I'm glad to hear nOva posted something as I was happy to see a recent post by Hashim Warren that got into similar territory.

Back when I was part of the dance world and very involved with experimental work, people used to look at various dance projects or forms and say, "that's not dance" because it didn't fit their Eurocentric model of fine art.

It's sad to see hip hop fans doing the same thing with an artform that many still to this day say is not music.

My response has always been that of course it's music or dance or whatever the category might be. Now whether it's bad art or not can be a worthwhile discussion but saying it's not art?

Fuck that.

And thanks again.

KRS-One would be infuriated by this.

That's all a part of the plan.

People still say that?

Good gracious, I've blogged this point to death, but in the context of the argued "difference" between rap and hip-hop.

Sometimes when a friend brings up an issue like this offline, I feel like saying, "Homie, this discussion was already dealt with on hip-hop blogs back in 2004. Get familiar!"

I think we were beat in the head constantly going to hip hop shows while growing up (going to shows for me that period was like 95-00, which was pretty recent), of what is real and what is fake (when Puffy and Foxy Brown were considered 'the fake'). Radio shows would do the same thing... 'learn your history' moments with original breaks being played, and even dang hip hop trivia! The only place to see 'a hip hop show' in its classic sense at that time were by organizers and promoters who really cared about the culture and didn't want to see it commercialized and commodified in a way that alienated people who were actually dedicated to it. And look now you have places that play hip hop yet discriminate (no joke). YOu have elitist clubs that think a style of dress or having big money (in a preppy abercrombie and fitch way), defines whether you can come in and party and have a good time. I'm all about being inclusive but how is that real?

And in response to the first comment how does attention to 'cultural ethics' = insecurities?

Nonetheless, there needs to be a balance b/t studio gangstas with all the tough talk and bling. The problem is that cats who drop conscious lyrics typically don't raise payola bucks for Flex and others ;)

KRS-One would be infuriated by this.

Even KRS has become very ecumenical of late as far as what he allows to be "real hip hop." Recently, at one of his shows, he made sure, for instance, to give props to Too $hort and framed his praise for Heavy D, "without him there'd be no Puff Daddy."

The step child of this argument that is also really annoying is the--"There's rap and there's hip hop, and they are two different types of music. Hip Hop is the good stuff and rap is the bad stuff."

I'm sooooo tired of that line. I had an argument with my students about this. I argue that Hip Hop is a subculture, and rap is the music that came from that subculture, but they could not wrap their heads around that idea.

Jay, You have to give me your opinion on this. How do think I can get the point across?

I have a suggestion. Tell your students that dogma inhibits creativity.

Jay, this is why I check your site daily. You get it. Nice post. This is a must read for all those hip-hop purist out there. Get 'em Jay!!

This is some juicy bait. God, I am so tempted to bite...

-Black People

Fuck it.

Here we go.

"Real Hip-Hop" is slang for that dope shit. Just like dope is slang for the good or premium Hip Hop music.

Now after the Versace Wars, a new form of music was created: Urban Pop.

The Versace Wars began in 1995 with the release of Biggie's Big Poppa single. They continued with the One More Chance single and the Birth of Jay-Z. The Boot Camp Click fought bravely during this time (y'all remember they beefed with Biggie? Along with Rae and Ghost?) The Versace Wars ended with the Death of Biggie, Pac, and the desire to defend Hip-hop. This was 1997. Thus the door opened for dudes from down south. No Limit and thier squad. The shift moved from wisdom knowledge and understanding to money power and respect. Artistic creativity was lost and the rest is embarrasing history where you can fill in the blanks.

Listen, in life, anytime something has to be explained, it's corny. Either you react to it when you hear, see or experience it or you don't.

All of that "Oh, well that's how they do it down south" or "Naw, cuz see, this his jawn to bump in the clubs" or "naw we wanted to take hip-hop in a new direction and try to mix live instruments with some of the older jazz artists that influenced us" all of this shit, these explanations just make excuses. And being peaceful people we try to be lenient.

But the bottom line is this: No explanation is needed. When you heare Wu-Tang Clan Ain't Nuntin' To Fuck Wit you don't have to explain hip-hop shit to nobody.

And if your life depended on it and someone asked you to pick a song that represents real hip-hop and on one side they said we have Wu-Tang Clan Ain't Nuntin' To Fuck Wit, I'm Still Number One (KRS), and Here We Go (Run DMC) and the other side they had some TI shit, Missy Elliot and 50Cent what would you honestly choose?

And we playin' keepin it real time. In fact we keepin it so real that you don't even have to answer. We'll call that question rhetorical because we know the answers.

Again I wish all those brothers and sisters the best in all of thier business ventures, but dope and real hip-hop doesn't require an explanation.

Smooth, don't give up the struggle so easily, bruh.

-Black People

That's what's up ^^^^^!!

People who disregard any cultural ethic in hip hop yet seek some type of expertise in it and or profit from it... may have been insecure ABOUT those cultural ethics at one point or another. They were strict indeed! Codes, regulations, rules, and oaths!

Hip Hop is and was all ABOUT a cultural ethic! Hey, I listen to Bachata, Rock, all kinds of sappy shit if I want to get away from hip hop for a little bit. But what the above post did was encapsulate what people mean when they say 'real hip hop'.

Then why call it "real hip hop" and not "Blah blah blah hip hop"?

"Real Hip-Hop" is slang for that dope shit. Just like dope is slang for the good or premium Hip Hop music.

I think people generally mean their pronouncements about "real hip-hop" to be taken in the most literal sense, and truly believe that whatever falls outside of their personal boundaries is quite literally not real hip-hop.

And if your life depended on it and someone asked you to pick a song that represents real hip-hop and on one side they said we have Wu-Tang Clan Ain't Nuntin' To Fuck Wit, I'm Still Number One (KRS), and Here We Go (Run DMC) and the other side they had some TI shit, Missy Elliot and 50Cent what would you honestly choose?

There's the rub. I see no reason whatsoever to consider TI, Missy, or 50 less hip-hop than any other artist. They are simply artists you don't happen to like. Assuming that the answer to your question would be self-evident is a textbook example of the Taste-As-Fact Fallacy (remind me to trademark that). Seeing your personal taste as a universal truth.

Speaking for myself, I think Missy and Timbo have done some of the best and most innovative hip-hop of the last decade. 50 and TI are more hit-or-miss for me. But whether you and I like them has nothing whatsoever to do with whether they are "real hip-hop".

If doing catchy pop tracks, kicking simplistic rhymes over simplistic beats, or spitting violent materialistic raps means you aren't "real hip-hop," a whole lot of revered golden age and old school artists will have to get their hip-hop pass revoked. I can't imagine that most people who espouse these theories have followed their logic to its conclusion. It's a hell of a Pandora's Box.

See.

That sounds cool in the blogosphere. Or on the internet. Or whatever.

It makes you sound real smart.

But I really don't know what the fuck you talkin' 'bout, Willis.

The bottom is still the same.

You tryin' explain shit.

It's simple and all of us know it. It ain't complex and ain't a whole lot of academic going back and forth babble.

The shit is laid out and you know it when you hear it.

Put it like this: The future of hip-hop is in your hands. you got 2 seconds. not a podium at a conference. a muvafucka asks you to pick a song to define hip hop.

do you say "Ain't No Half Steppin" Or "Candy Shop"?

I rest my case.

-Black People

Right Eric, if that's not really what people mean than they'd be much better off not using such elitist and divisive terms..

Rachel and Hashim: no doubt, the "rap vs. hip-hop" angle is also due to be retired, I agree. That one's funny because if you look back into our history, neither of those terms has always meant what folks currently think they mean. It's one of many "rules" that kids treat as if Kool Herc handed them down on stone tablets, when they're actually relatively new ideas.

If I can find it I'll repost that LL freestyle from the mid-80s where he says something along the lines of "I kick the real rap, not that hip-hop," speaking as if it is commonly understood that "hip-hop" = "that corny ish".

But to answer your other Q Hashim, yes people still say these things.. my post was inspired by the description on this youtube clip I watched yesterday.

This is not a debate about the appeal and authenticity of music. This is a discussion about how we label music. I wasn't being smug with my last comment ("blah blah blah hip hop"). If, instead of "real", you called it "3XLN448" no one would argue with you. But when you label anything "real" you are bringing, shall we say, philosophical baggage to the discussion.

This sort of labeling debate is largely an issue of semantics and politics. If you can precisely articulate what you mean by "real" (i.e., pin down precise semantics)... then either we accept or reject your labeling (politics). But it is clear that use of the label "real" is not only ambiguous, but also seems based on emotional reactions and political affiliations (i.e., in the KRS camp).

Another thing to think about is that few people can agree about what "real" means in any context, let alone articulate it thoroughly and precisely. If we can't agree on the term "real", how the hell can we decide what "real hip hop" is?

What is real?

Y'all startin' to trip.

I'm outta here.

Wu-Tang Forever.

-Black People

Not sure what you mean by "trip". ;)

i agree

"And we playin' keepin it real time. In fact we keepin it so real that you don't even have to answer. We'll call that question rhetorical because we know the answers."

word to black people, in every single line.
and as far as i keep seeing less breakers on the videos and on the jams, and mcs, talkin unproductive stuff, in any sense, and people with hype, but no substance at all, producers, flippin gay loops like 1234, beat ready, now thats not even fake, thats weak. id rather like to learn from authentic people, who earned their credits, pay respect to their surrounding and are "true"-ly
admired for what they do. the essay is garbage.

my 2 cents
mike

Das Efx with the real hip-hop...

Hmm not to mention

The Real Weight
Only the Real Survive
The Realness
Feel The Real
Return of the Real Shit
The Real McKoy
Be The Realist
On the Real
On The Real Tip
Real Estate lol
Shit Is Real
Shit Iz Real
Can This Be real?
For Real
You Ain't Real
Real G's
Real Compton City G's
Real Deal
Back to Reality
Real People
I'm Real
It's Real
Stay Real
That's Real
Really Doe
Real Raw
A Real Mutha For Ya
Sho For Real
Beyond Real

& Finally

Keep It Real... Represent What?

My Nuts

In my case, I know it's subjective, but I do think that there's a different between hip hop and rap. Hip hop refers to an entire culture, rap is part of the hip hop culture, so is dejaying and sample based production. Which brings me to another belief you have to have samples for it to be hip hop, otherwise you got plain ole music with rapping.

the bottom line is this: No explanation is needed. When you heare Wu-Tang Clan Ain't Nuntin' To Fuck Wit you don't have to explain hip-hop shit to nobody.

-Black People

Interesting stuff. Funny how some people can't get past their personal tastes to look at this discussion through clear eyes. The beauty of music in general is that people have intense personal experiences where certain music is the soundtrack for it. Someone who was 20 years old, living in NY when Illmatic dropped is going to have a different experience with that record than someone who picks it up now for the first time.

I went to the YouTube video you are referring to and it was uploaded by SameUnderneath, which is a small clothing company here in Portland that is based on the values of equality (i.e. we are all the same underneath our skin). They work with a lot of local artists and put out some really dope clothes as well. My point is that I know those people and they aren't typical elitist hip hop heads, but the way the guy described the clip came across that way. Everyone says things that might be exaggerated and this is a case of that happening.

You guys are overcomplicating something that is really simple.

Something as simple as gettin' pussy.

You stick ya dick in, move around a little bit, nut and get outta there.

That's it. It's natural. Nothin' more to it.

No need to bring in philosphy, personal experience or no other bullshit.

All of y'all know better than this.

Stop tryin to overcomplicate things.

We are not all the same.

The music is not all the same.

Y'all know this.

Stop frontin'.

You're gonna confuse people.

Y'all know better than what you're saying.

Come clean. Be honest.

Out.

-Black People

And another thing:

I 'ont give a fuck how many big words you know.

E-40 is never gonna be on the same level as Big Pun.

-Black People

Stop tryin to defend that wack shit. You are hurting one of our greatest inventions (I mean Hip-Hop).

Y'all dudes tryin' be peaceful and show love. And you wind up laying down and giving up your convictions.

Look, you can show love to that other shit, but you don't have to give up what you know.

In fact, all you have to do is do your thing harder. It's not like you're disrepecting anyone.

Don't lay down so easily.

Hip-Hop ain't dead. And there is no fused-together melting pot of music.

Where ya heart at? Get some courage and stand up for what you know is right.

-Black People

Your an Idiot.......and dont deserve to mention utter the Word "HIPHOP"

"Someone who was 20 years old, living in NY when Illmatic dropped is going to have a different experience with that record than someone who picks it up now for the first time"
-Posted by: G Off at June 7, 2006 06:23 PM

Thats the truth. Yeah Wu Tang Clan Aint nothin to F' with is the real deal raw ish. But to younger cats nowadays they have their own version of what they feel, what they remember about a certain point in time and how that song relates to a certain point in their life. Thats why some cats are still stuck in 1995...Large Pro, Buckshot, Grand Puba, Group Home, Gangstarr, Hiero, Freestyle Fellowship etc. They dont give new music a chance and cast it off as wack and not "REAL".. Or the backpackin cats that believe it has to be SUPER-underground to be "REAL" but havent even attempted to learn the history of Hip Hop..
Where is the BALANCE?
This is off subject indeed but I just wanted to comment THANKS>>

p.s.>>Interesting to see everyone's take on Hip Hop and what they validate as Hip Hop or not.. Or if we can even validate it..

Jay,
You offer the most complete, concise, and intellectual perspective of hip hop that I've heard since Michael Eric Dyson's analysis during the Tupac/Biggie era; and I agree with your position.
Thanks for the post.

I think the true point is lost here: the argument of "real hiphop" vs "fake hiphop" is off-center, and so is the discussion on "preferences" and "tastes". The real distinction here is "old school" rap/hiphop verses "new school" hiphop/rap. For example, Sugar Hill Gang, Run DMC, PE ending with Biggie/2pac is "old school". However, I do disagree with the real g.o.a.t. (KRS1)who said there would not be a "new school" until 50yrs down the line, as the "new school" began post 2pac/biggie.

So, there is a clear distinction between these eras that is not simply a matter of taste. That's not to say one era is more "hiphop" than the other. Rather, hiphop has evolved into a "new" billion dollar industry that includes Missy, 50, Eminem, TI, spinning rims, over-the-top excess, studio-gangstas, radio-ready tracks, one-voice genre(TI vs lloyd banks & 50 vs ludacris) etc.., whether we like it or not.

I personal think that young people will gravitate to anything which is fresh, and interesting. I dont think it is too hard to get a kid's attention.
When public enemy was in their heydey to even when Lords of the undergrounds dropped their LP.
When you say that this music gets their attention, i think it would happen regardless of who is performing.
My major problem is that the music and the artist who get primary play on the radio are part of a de-evolution act. I mean when something reaches it's peak you don't digress from it. So if rakim is able to take rhyming to that other level, others have to be able to following suit. The problem is, that nobody really was able to do it. So if we have tires made out of rubber, we should use stone wheels? If i am rhyming about things which can help me, instead i should rhyme about things which should hurt me?

Smooth,
This was really not nice of you to post something with the heading of "There's no such thing as real hiphop". You really know how to get us riled up. Very cruel indeed. With such creativity, you should have sponsorship banners to cash in on the traffic you generate.

But yo, back to you space dudes.

Yo man, a lot of y'all are males but y'all ain't men. Yo, don't be scurred of all the big words you see on the internet.

Speak up.

Y'all know what it is. Don't be a spineless jellyfish.

Ain't no laws that say ya grammar, spelling and whatever other silencing bullshit that get's used bars you from telling the truth.

The rest of y'all are being mad naive. Hiding behind your plays on words.

Y'all know the difference.

I think alot of y'all DJs right?

And if you playin' a gig and someone says "Yo, it's gon' be mad hiphop heads in the house, you ain't spinnin' no fuckin PM Dawn or no Missy Elliot. You gon take care business.

Be honest.

Stop lyin.

y'all being real naive.

I just learned that word. And I see a lot of y'all use big words so I know you know what it means.

And as a truce, my offering: we won't call y'all radio shit fake or wack anymore.

We'll just call it Urban Pop.

Deal?

-Black People

easy black people. no need to get amped. i actually agree that there is actually real and fake but i think it goes deeper than your favorite shit and shit you don't like. the language real and fake came out of the fact that many people started to perpetrate frauds about who and what they are in order to manipulate the growing hiphop audience. knowing we respond to certain shit, certain people - corporate and otherwise - started pretending. Pretending to be conscious, pretending to be gangster, pretending to be whateverwillsell. The pretense showed and the audience rebeled against the fraud and started demanding 'realness'. jay, your essay takes advantage of the fact that real is not well defined. but there are clear examples of real (as in authentic, original material produced as a true expression) and clear examples of not real as in manufactured, plastic, meant to dupe. There is in fact real hiphop that i'm not crazy about and fake shit that i find entertaining. but like rza told me once 'truth is charismatic'. and immediately evident. real recognize real is axiom that while misused by all sorts is based in a basic hiphop principle: bullshit walks.

I agree with "456" on the evolution of "real" vs " fake" hiphop, and even the definition. However, the problem is
the old "fake" hiphop (which WAS the minority) has become the new "real" hiphop (which is the majority). For example, in "old school" hiphop, the majority consisted of KRS1, PE, RAKIm, NWA, Cube, DRE etc... while the "fake" consisted of Hammer, vanilla ice,.etc... Today (new school), the majority has more in common with the latter group (TI, cash money mill, etc..) The minority, today is Common, Talie, sorry no room for KRS1/ PE/ Xclan types . So, this is why there is no such thing as real/fake hiphop anymore, regardless of your tastes/preferences.

Peace

This has been a dope read. However we wouldn't be having this discussion if there was balance. The bling vs. the conscious. I've lost the argument of real vs. fake and been called an elitest because most times I won't give any of the new stuff a chance.

TAKING IT PERSONAL. It's hard for me not to take it personal because I grew up in an era when hip hop was life and life was hip hop. Now that it has evolved, I can't relate to it. Pop it if you want to pop it, but it ain't me.

I DJ

I use to be a B-Girl

I use to Emcee

All of those elements are a dying breed in this current evolution and it's just hard to relate to. Most of the popular stuff today uses a combination of elements that aren't appealing to me so I'm just not feeling it and because of my past, I'm forced to call wack....

Creative or not... it still adds to a much larger problem than it being real or fake.... the content driven society we live in is what really bothers me. (See things that were once foul eventually becomes tolerable.)

Good lookin' out, 456.

Just the fact that you said "perpertrate a fraud" is alright wit' me.

Peace.

-Black People

Peace to Mike, too. Just read the post after things got cleaned up. Thanks for reppin', Mike.

-Black People.

I agree with people who feel today's rap music is often lacking (especially lyrics). But that doesn't mean I look for scapegoats or draw these arbitrary lines in the sand.

Things change. The radio has almost always been dominated by wack music. That's radio. And that was part of the opportunity that gave birth to hip hop in the first place. When there is artistic stagnation or bloat, there is opportunity.

If there is a problem, as I see it, it is that kids today don't have a balanced musical diet. To me, what will yield better music is if people listen to a wider range of music.

I say free your mind. Asses will follow.

My song "Because I Got High" is real Hiphop.

Jay, seems to me you're using a very broad definition of the word Hip Hop, so broad in fact, I wonder whether you've really defined it much at all in your mind. Perhaps the question of whether this or that piece of music qualifies as real Hip Hop isn't an important question, I'll agree. But if the word Hip Hop has any meaning whatsoever, the question can be asked.

So what's your definition? I think you might want to reconsider it. Is it rhyming over beats? I guess that makes trucker music the orginal Hip Hop. But you wouldn't exclude instrumental Hip Hop, right? So that leaves us with a beat. It can't be any kind of beat, right? It would have to be a little bit funky at least. But Funk doesn't equal Hip Hop. So it's a certain kind of Funk, or an offshoot? That would bring us closer to my own definition. Seeems like your only requirement may be that the artist sincerely intend and present their music as Hip Hop.

Again- I'm not on a labeling crusade, the more important question is whether a piece of music is any good. But there again, I think your definition is too broad. You've often stated on this blog that crticism boils down to individual taste and is totally subjectiive. Not true. The fact is, it's only partially subjective. If it were totally subjective, art wouldn't be worth much at all. To say otherwise is to glibly dismiss the whole of art criticism, a field in which many minds greater than yours and mine have devoted themselves to studying and theorizing how to discuss and crtique art- analyzing it in terms of language, symbols, aesthetics and self-consistency. If the work of art clearly falls within a genre, that makes it even easier to critique- you've got a common set of values and techniques to measure it by. But even an utterly genreless work can be analyzed in terms of its own internal language, what its intentions are, how well it achieves them and self-consistency.

Dismiss the Entertainment Weekly/Rolling Stone variety of criticism all you like, it often amounts to little more than a discussion of clothing, money, girlfriends, criminal records and drug use. Higher forms of criticism exist and are useful.

Jay
I'm with you until this part:

We need to approach his music with an open mind, figure out how he is capturing people's imagination better than we are, and learn from that. Then we can engage that artist and his fans with respect, acknowledging and understanding what they find valuable in the music and framing our critiques within that context. Until we get smart enough to do that, we're always gonna be the self-righteous underground backpackers that nobody listens to.

Nobody? You mean the tens of thousands of suburban white kids who propelled 50 to superstar status? I'm not really sure why this matters, or why it is that complex. It's pretty easy to define what attracts some to E-40, Lil Jon, Diddy, whomever is hot at the moment. They make disposable, accessible music that's just threatening enough to allow the listener to come off as rebels, danceable beats with a hook and a chant that's easy to memorize. I don't think "he" has captured anyone's imagination as much as he has their gut or their groin.

We may be stuck in 95 or 84 or 78, yet we still have those cassette tapes, those 12" discs. 50 might sell platinum but within a year 75% of the people who bought it will be up in some used CD store trying to get beer money by selling that disk.

Of course if this "nobody" is the peer group of kids like my 17 year old nephew (sure you remember me talking about him on LJ), then the issue becomes more complex. Are we then trying to come at him as a counter to Thug Clone #whatever, to be able to reach him in a way that Floppy Hat Rapper Clone #228 can't?

Funny, that first part is similar to how I started my piece on Pigeon John last week, though of course with him I wasn't setting things up in defense of "negative" rap (I know that isn't what you're doing here). Anyway, we're thinking similarly, I just don't vibe with that last bit.

I'm going to have to take exception to the statement, "If it were totally subjective, art wouldn't be worth much at all. To say otherwise is to glibly dismiss the whole of art criticism, a field in which many minds greater than yours and mine have devoted themselves to studying and theorizing how to discuss and crtique art- analyzing it in terms of language, symbols, aesthetics and self-consistency."

Even when there's consensus that something is good or high quality, it is still a subjective statement on the culture that respects it. The first thing I learned when I studied art history is that any work is a representative of the values of the time that produced it as much as it is it's own discrete object of value or lack of value. Is the Mona Lisa better than a Japanese ink on paper drawing? Is Marvin Gaye better than Biggie? It's easier to see how much subjective, conditional aesthetic values differ when comparing things from two differnt cultures or eras. But it doesn't change when we're talking about things from the same era. Many people buy so called "disposable," "crap," music; it must fulfill some sort of standard or need of that audience. I'm not saying that the ability to fulfill the needs of a broad consensus doesn't make it better, either. What I am saying is that I agree with Jay that those sort of value judgements are the product of personally held values, making it impossible for there to be an objective definition of "good." And when the genre you're talking about is the cornerstone in a multi-billion dollar international industry, there's going to be so many people bringing their aesthetic values to the table that it's no longer possible for the rules to be handed down by a small group of leaders.

Typo: "I'm not saying that the ability to fulfill the needs of a broad consensus doesn't make it better, either."

I'm not saying that the ability to fulfill the needs of a broad consensus makes it better, either.

Many people buy so called "disposable," "crap," music; it must fulfill some sort of standard or need of that audience.

This is too obvious. Of course it fills some kind of need. But so what? Does the fact that someone bought a song somehow legitimize it for everyone? It seems that people are saying that simply because it is appreciated by masses, then we have to respect that, and not differ in opinion.

The whole line of thinking reminds me of something from my high school days. I might be critical of some song by, oh, I dunno, Ray Parker. Invariably the response would come from someone, "But he makin' money tho!" as if that was a rebuttal to my criticisms. If Ray Parker is selling well (i.e. popular), then he is beyond your criticism.*

This is not where Jay was intending his post to take us, I don't think, however that seems to be the direction it is travelling. The "fake" v "real" hip hop debate is a very specific thing, and doesn't quite broaden out to "objective v subjective." That's a different thing.

*In a way, that's true. He's achieving one goal despite my objects, and that is he's selling records. On the other hand, his music post-Raydio still sucks, and I'm sure if it weren't for Ghostbusters, no one would know who the fuck I was talking about. History was on my side.

On that note, it could be said this "real vs fake" is a discussion within the culture, about the POLITICS of the culture. It is not merely a critique, it is an attempt to form allegiances and create enemies.

My view is that politics is only good for art in as much as artists defy the politics and create something universal and/or personal or individualistic.

In short, I would say "politics divides and art unites". These attempts by various people to separate different rap artists from each other are clearly political attempts to divide the culture. As one sage once quipped, "Everything is already real."

^ "Many people buy so called "disposable," "crap," music; it must fulfill some sort of standard or need of that audience."

Yes and no. Not all of us are buying Christina Aguilera's CDs because of her musical ability. ;)

Gandalph:

You mean the tens of thousands of suburban white kids who propelled 50 to superstar status?

I dunno, I think 50 reached superstar status by reaching a far wider variety of people than that.. and if you had a show a BB King's tonight featuring 50 Cent and Lil Jon, and a show tomorrow with, say, Jurassic 5 and the Roots, there'd be a substantially higher percentage of suburban white kids at the second show.

They make disposable, accessible music that's just threatening enough to allow the listener to come off as rebels, danceable beats with a hook and a chant that's easy to memorize. I don't think "he" has captured anyone's imagination as much as he has their gut or their groin.

But how do you judge which hip-hop (or any pop) song is "disposable" and which is not? Top Billin and La Di Da Di are both very simple, accessible tracks too, "It Takes Two" is a very simply, catchy dance track that will never elevate anyone's minds.. does that mean they have any less value or artistic merit than The Coup's new album? I don't think so.

I think reaching people in their gut is the most important thing any music can do, and it's a mistake to devalue that. If your music brings people joy by connecting with them on an intuitive level, that is the highest calling of any musician, and much more important than whether it also operates on some higher intellectual plane. If you're not hitting people in their gut, your aims for their cerebral edification won't matter much.

A.W.: I'm not sure how you came to these assumptions about how I define hip-hop?

Judging the boundaries between hip-hop and other musical genres is different from judging between hip-hop and fake hip-hop, that's a whole other conversation. Delineating the aesthetic qualities that separate one form from another is different from the rendering of approval and disapproval by separating fake "fake" and "real" within a genre.

My view of hip-hop's aesthetic boundaries, in that sense, are probably narrower than you assume.. I wrote in several places questioning whether it makes sense to consider "Hey Ya" a hip-hop record, for example.

But I wasn't saying that "Hey Ya" is fake hip-hop, or making any value judgement about its merit. Just arguing that there are specific musical qualities that make something a hip-hop record, and Hey Ya didn't have much of those, if any. Doesn't mean there's anything fake about it, it's a great song that fits better into some other category than hip-hop.

And going by my rather conservative aesthetic boundaries, I'd say most 50 Cent tracks fall much more easily within the boundaries of hip-hop than "Hey Ya," as do most artists offered here to exemplify the "fake." But as I said that's a whole other conversation.

Jay: OK then, maybe we're caught up in semantics. But I'd extend my argument to say that if a piece of music is presented as Hip Hop but doesn't meet the basic defintion of the genre and/or does so with total incompetance, one could call it fake. By that measure, a good chunk of Hot 97's playlist could be considered fake. If you don't consider the beat to "Hey Ya" a Hip Hop beat, then our definitions are probably pretty close. A lot of people would have no problem with calling that a Hip Hop beat.

It does irk me though, when common definitions become so broad as to become meaningless. I'm thinking of a Rolling Stone cover from a while back, titled "Women in Rock". Two of the women on the cover were Britney Spears and Mary J Blige. The word "Rock" has really been abused. It's come a long way from "It's got a back beat; you can't loose it", just like Hip Hop has come a long way from, "It's based on a beat with a real slight dip..."

Yo I just read this in today's L.A. times and I felt obligated to share it.

It's from a kid who's 10 years old.

I thought it was genius and beautiful.

And I'm tired of beating this dead horse. All of y'all know what the fake and the real is already...

So here's a pleasant intermission.
------------------------------------

I AM
by Lucio, 10
Eastman Avenue Elemetary
Los Angeles

I am Lucio.

I am a frijolero.

I am a Mexican.

I am a basketball player.

I wonder why George Bush keeps sending soldiers to Iraq.

I see racism.

I see people making believe they're aliens, animals, freaks.

And the worst thing, believing they are not people.

I want a better world.

I want a world where you don't have to feel bad to be a Mexican, black or any religion.

I am Lucio.

I pretend I am in the NBA.

I feel the pain in people, when someone in their family dies.

I touch the Cesar Chavez statue and remember what he did for campesinos.

I worry that one day someone or a country will try to conquer America.

That will be the end of the world.

Why?

Because America has nuclear weapons.

I cry for my abuelita and my abuelito.

My cousins don't speak Spanish.

My abuelitos can't speak English.

I am proud to be Mexican.

I don't understand why there are wars for oil and power.

I say that HR4437 should not pass.

I dream I will do the same thing my dad did at UCLA.

I try to do the best in school and on the basketball court.

I hope that in the future every person can be treated equally without racism.

I am my dad, my mom and everthing they believe in.

--------------------------------------------

- (posted by) Black People
written by Lucio

A.W.: I think we agree more than we disagree. I'm with you on getting annoyed when people treat these words as if they have no meaning.. a version of this that always rankles me is when people cite everyone from The Gil Scott Heron to Cab Calloway to Edgar Allen Poe as "the first rappers," and say that hip-hop has always been around since the beginning of time and this is just the newest incarnation of it, and so on.

Jay: Ha! You mean like Bambaataa? He said Moses was the first rapper. But just to throw a wrench in the works here, I'll throw in one that meets a pretty rigorous definition of Hip Hop, except the cultural milieu part, but predates Herc by five years: "You're No Good" by Terry Riley, the Minimalist composer- recorded in 1968. It was commissioned by the owner of a Philadelphia disco (a year before the opening of the Loft in NYC?), for use as the disco's theme song. Inexplicably, it uses modern DJ techniques, including that crossfader-delay move (there must be a name for that, but I don't know it), but he does it with tape loops! It's basically Terry Riley cutting up Harvey Averne's 1968 R&B song (of the same name) for 20 some odd minutes.

Damn,
You're no good by harvey averne is the shit! I would love to hear that mix.

Yo, y'all know that's the bassline that pete rock used on jump around remix?

-Black People

Cheers to A.W. and Jay for steering the convo in an interesting direction.

As popular hip-hop beats move almost entirely toward what was once considered downtempo electronic sounds, the gray area of beat classification grows [take for example Busta's "Touch It" which samples liberally from Daft Punk's "Technologic"].

Apart from a few stalwarts, no one is sampling live instrumentation artists like James Brown, Zapp or the Bar-Kays anymore -- and even fewer artists are doing live music themselves (Roots). The g-funk sound of the early-mid nineties was a last gasp for this sort of sampling, and gave some final burn to guys like Parliament and the Ohio Players.

Most beats today, especially the 'urban pop' that black people speaks of, are rooted strictly in electronic dance music. Just hang out in any lounge or upscale bar and listen to the music: you'll swear it was instrumentals of the latest tracks found on hot97 or b.e.t.

Does it make it any less 'hip-hop'? assuming other criteria are met, probably not, but as this expansive definition of hip hop grows, so too will the confusion and debate.

"We need to approach his music with an open mind, figure out how he is capturing people's imagination better than we are, and learn from that. Then we can engage that artist and his fans with respect, acknowledging and understanding what they find valuable in the music and framing our critiques within that context."

Real talk Jay.

ok, so there dope hip hop and wack rap. gotcha.

long live wu!

theres two types of music- good music and bad music, thats the bottom line. ppl live in bubbles and stepping outside can be frightening some times.

Alright, theres crunk,gangsta,and R&G hiphop! Some r great, and others suck!

hip hop is real as long as it comes from the heart,even if it means rapping about rims or killing

Go to exministries.com then tell me what you think.

No! Real hip hop is considered as any hiphop that is not too comercial. For example : Talib Kwali. That is whats is considered as so called REAL HIPHOP because its not just about cars females and money.

there is such a thing as real hip hop. there are plenty of real hip hop rappers that i dont like.

chamillionaire and that suburban whitey popular america unexpressive drug sex shit is NOT hip hop.

thugs life clone #228 has done nothing right, except marketing. true hip hop was underground, speaking to the inner city with expression, and taught us kids about life, codes of ethics, credos, etc. as this true hip hop went mainstream, companies marketed toward it, hoping it was the next big thing. it WAS the next big thing, but only because of THEM. if they hadnt marketed it, it wouldve stayed underground.

as this newly market hip hop arrived, it started to change. from struggling artists/writers/producers/dancers trying to reach his/her people, to already over privaledged men trying to make big bucks.

true hip hop exists...wake up...

and the only thing thug life clone #228 did right was sell to the people that didnt have it. by it, i mean what we had when we were kids. thug 228 sells rich whiteys the chance to be "hip hop", to be "cool" to get "in" with the "in" crowd. all these people who buy thug # 228s album are trying to reach hip hops roots, and are told by their peers that it's "cool"

not sure what i have to put here lol but i love hip hop and i dont really no if there is sucha thing like REAL hop hop becuz all moves r maily off the street i dont really no how you could call it REAL hop thou ??!!im not even makin sence lol :D xxx

I like hip hop
I like rap
The only think I wanna listen
is good music like that!

Peace!

I like hip hop
I like rap
The only think I wanna listen
is good music like that!

Peace!

I used to be fooled into thinking that there is 'real' Hip Hop, and the 'fake' shit. But when you think about that in the wider context - that just doesn't make sense.

First of all, Hip Hop isn't just a music type, as mentioned earlier it's a sub-culture. A sub-culture that has emerged from the creativity and need for self-expression for deprived inner city youth. For me, it was a predominantly Black/Brown experience - but that is as much about social economics than anything else. Like the wild flower that somehow manages to rise through the cracks in the projects ashpalt. Hip hop is that flower. Word up.

Hip hop gave a voice to an otherwise unheard minority. Hip hop was a means for identification for me, my boys and our whole generation. It spoke up for us, when nobody else was. It represented our experience, when nobody else would.

Hip hop is not just music.

When you come from where I've come from, hip hop is your life. And its a beautiful thing. For me, back in the day, a Primo beat talked to me without words but explained perfectly what I saw, what I lived, how I felt each and every day in my community. The expression of hip hop was not just a musical thing though, it was in everything you do. It didn't mean you HAD to be a B-Boy, but they represented a part OF you. It didn't mean you HAD to be nice with your graf, but they expressed another part of you too. Our language, clothes, walk and mindset were all tied up into the sub-culture of hip hop.

However, bringing it back to this topic - can we say that the pop chart hip hop music is any less representative of the same inner city experience TODAY than we had years ago with Tribe, L.O.N.S, KRS, PE or Kane?

I say no.

The material/gangsta/pop rap that charts today may not fully represent what we see each and every day - but much of it may be what young people today aspire to. It is somewhat of a catch 22 because it becomes self-fulfilling with the media so dominant in ensuring shorties come up wanting to be what they hear in the music. Either way, it is still hip hop music. It is still in the central consciousness of the inner cities.

There is just a much wider selection in hip hop music now - but as mentioned by someone else, it comes down to personal taste/experience. The Missy and 50 shit may not represent my taste/experience - but it doesn't mean its not hip hop music. To say that would be to say that my experience/taste is the only way - and much as I might want that to be true - hip hop is inclusive not exclusive, so I accept that there is more than one voice speaking within this sub-culture.

I'll end this by likening this to Jazz music. If you go into a store and look in the Jazz section, you'll find some supermaket/lounge shit like Kenny G but also find some Theolonius Monk - BOTH listed as Jazz, but both VERY different.

We have to accept that our culture is an ever-evolving thing. We can protect the good and ensure our voice within hip hop is not permanently drowned out, but we need to come to terms with the fact that there are other voices in the room too.

thats really true. i used to think that there was fake hip hop and real hip hop. it all goes to what you like

Picture this: You are a hip-hop elitist. youre in the club and "In Da Club" comes on. everybody loves this song, the beat is sick, and 50 is whatever but he flows.

Then, as you try your hardest not to bob your head to the music (remember you must hate 50 at all costs), a fine looking girl dances up to you smiling. She has a drink in her hand and immediately turns around and starts grinding on you.

But you are a hip-hop elitist. So you deny the fact that you have a boner, tap her on the shoulder and say "Excuse me miss, this is 50, he's fake hip-hop. Not real hip-hop. So stop grinding on me and listen to some real hip-hop, you fucking idiot. I should be leaving now. Goodnight." At which point she throws her drink in your smug ass face. Bitch.

Picture this: You are a hip-hop elitist. youre in the club and "In Da Club" comes on. everybody loves this song, the beat is sick, and 50 is whatever but he flows. Then, as you try your hardest not to bob your head to the music (remember you must hate 50 at all costs), a fine looking girl dances up to you smiling. She has a drink in her hand and immediately turns around and starts grinding with you. You secretly like it.

But you are a hip-hop elitist. So you deny the fact that you have a boner, tap her on the shoulder and say "Excuse me miss, this is 50, he's fake hip-hop. Not real hip-hop. So stop grinding on me and listen to some real hip-hop, you idiot. Goodnight." At which point she throws her drink in your smug ass face. Go home.